company registration

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rigsbyofficial
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:56 pm

Good morning guys, does anyone have information on how to register with betfair as a company?

On the site it is said that it is possible by sending the documents of the company, so has anyone of you done it?

Can you tell me if there are any differences between a registered user and a registered company regarding taxation, premium charge and other?

Thank you community! :D
foxwood
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:54 pm

Don't know how Betfair treat a company as a user. My guess is that it would be the same as an individual complete with PC. If you were a major market maker then you might get to play under different rules.

If you are going to trade / bet as a limited company then any profit/loss will come under Corporation Tax. Directors are regarded as employees and as such then have to pay tax under PAYE and ees/ers NI is also payable. You can distribute funds as dividends but if that is the main way of getting money out then HMRC will look very closely at this for any evasion/avoidance.

All the talk of trading and/or buying/selling in terms of the exchange is not wise imho and encourages HMRC to consider it all as a business venture.

Call it all betting (which it is according to Betfair hence their T&C's) and you are in a different world with HMRC. A company would still be taxable as above but an individual is not liable for tax on money made by betting.

The law on this dates back to a1923 High Court ruling which you can see at https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btc/9-tc-309

Of course, the government of the day could change this at any time if it chose to so keep your head down !
tumby
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 pm

I moved all my betting into a registered company in July 2019. I just phoned my account manager and they got the right docs in place. Was pretty quick and pain less.

The premium charge carries on unchanged, they link your new corporate account to your old personal account so this is not a way to avoid paying PC!

If I draw a salary from my company then that would be taxed just like any salary from any company with income tax and NI (including employers!). Any net profit then gets taxed for corporation tax. So this is not exactly the most tax efficient way to do things.
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Naffman
Posts: 5626
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:46 am

tumby wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:23 am
I moved all my betting into a registered company in July 2019. I just phoned my account manager and they got the right docs in place. Was pretty quick and pain less.

The premium charge carries on unchanged, they link your new corporate account to your old personal account so this is not a way to avoid paying PC!

If I draw a salary from my company then that would be taxed just like any salary from any company with income tax and NI (including employers!). Any net profit then gets taxed for corporation tax. So this is not exactly the most tax efficient way to do things.
What's the point then if you don't mind me asking? After the 40-60% PC plus income tax plus corporation tax I'm surprised you have anything left...
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jimibt
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:42 pm
Location: Narnia

Naffman wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:31 am
tumby wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:23 am
I moved all my betting into a registered company in July 2019. I just phoned my account manager and they got the right docs in place. Was pretty quick and pain less.

The premium charge carries on unchanged, they link your new corporate account to your old personal account so this is not a way to avoid paying PC!

If I draw a salary from my company then that would be taxed just like any salary from any company with income tax and NI (including employers!). Any net profit then gets taxed for corporation tax. So this is not exactly the most tax efficient way to do things.
What's the point then if you don't mind me asking? After the 40-60% PC plus income tax plus corporation tax I'm surprised you have anything left...
likewise, going over my head. unless it's to evidence income, tho there are easier ways i'm sure (more ££ efficient)
tumby
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 pm

[/quote]

What's the point then if you don't mind me asking? After the 40-60% PC plus income tax plus corporation tax I'm surprised you have anything left...
[/quote]

I was replying to the poster in a generic way. In my case I had specific reasons to do it, my company has historic losses that mean I don't pay corporation tax at present, any salary i pay is below the threshold for income tax and NI so in reality I am not paying any tax at present. I can offset various costs against my profits, as an example my house was not on any plans for a broadband upgrade so my company paid a large amount to get fibre direct to my property reducing my taxable profits.

One reason I use a company is to hedge against the possible changes coming to betting. I hope and pray that any new rules only apply to individuals and not to companies. The one that would hit me hardest is any restriction on how frequently you can bet. My systems at present often run close to the 5000 bets per hour limit. There is no way that will be allowed in the post gambling review world. But hopefully companies will be spared, I am assuming if they are spared then having had a company set up for some time should mean I would escape the rule changes. Of course i will probably get caught in some other way but you have to try..
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

That's quite a lot of trouble to go to when you're second-guessing what Betfair's going to do. When Betfair introduce a maximum £2 stake, I can't really see them excluding business users.
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Naffman
Posts: 5626
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:46 am

Derek27 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:02 pm
That's quite a lot of trouble to go to when you're second-guessing what Betfair's going to do. When Betfair introduce a maximum £2 stake, I can't really see them excluding business users.
I agree, even if you're a 'Betfair VIP' or have an account manager you don't get an advantage on those just starting out or those in loss; so I can't see why they'd suddenly just change the rules.

I too don't get why you're putting in all this effort but if it's worth it for you then who's to tell you otherwise, but I personally wouldn't see how it benefits you.
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Naffman wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:08 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:02 pm
That's quite a lot of trouble to go to when you're second-guessing what Betfair's going to do. When Betfair introduce a maximum £2 stake, I can't really see them excluding business users.
I agree, even if you're a 'Betfair VIP' or have an account manager you don't get an advantage on those just starting out or those in loss; so I can't see why they'd suddenly just change the rules.

I too don't get why you're putting in all this effort but if it's worth it for you then who's to tell you otherwise, but I personally wouldn't see how it benefits you.
It's not the first time this subject's been raised so maybe there are benefits buried under the complex taxation system.

Not suggesting anyone on here's doing it, but arbing away your Betfair funds to a bookie and making a loss with Betfair on a company held account would be a good way of reducing your tax bill. :)
Seth
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 2:25 pm

Naffman wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:08 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:02 pm
That's quite a lot of trouble to go to when you're second-guessing what Betfair's going to do. When Betfair introduce a maximum £2 stake, I can't really see them excluding business users.
I agree, even if you're a 'Betfair VIP' or have an account manager you don't get an advantage on those just starting out or those in loss; so I can't see why they'd suddenly just change the rules.

I too don't get why you're putting in all this effort but if it's worth it for you then who's to tell you otherwise, but I personally wouldn't see how it benefits you.
Looks more like he's forward planning and using the historic losses to ensure he doesn't pay unnecessary tax right now. There are plenty of advantages to being a limited company from company cars , paying the missus , cabling his house for broadband etc. I'd imagine the companies balance sheet is helping for now and he'd go back to 'betting' status when it starts to cost and the threat of restrictions is off the table.

I always thought having an account manager would be a pointless exercise but you do get offered things you wouldn't as a normal customer and get a heads up of any forthcoming changes.
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decomez6
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:26 pm

--
tumby wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:23 am
I moved all my betting into a registered company in July 2019. I just phoned my account manager and they got the right docs in place. Was pretty quick and pain less.

The premium charge carries on unchanged, they link your new corporate account to your old personal account so this is not a way to avoid paying PC!

If I draw a salary from my company then that would be taxed just like any salary from any company with income tax and NI (including employers!). Any net profit then gets taxed for corporation tax. So this is not exactly the most tax efficient way to do things.
what,s not to like :D
as a proffessional trader...( i'm not there yet).....it does feel like a 9-5 away from a regular commuting job. the only difference is ;

you are the investor, CEO, HR, IT, down to the kitchen master.......so how much do you pay yourself ?

--do you buy new equipment every year..sotware, hardware ( including a betangel tea/ coffee/ lager mug , with a t shirt to work as a uniform)
-you can actually get tax deductions on washing uniforms and buying new pair of shoes ETC.
-and dont forget the gifts that you can donate to a loved ones like opening an account for young ones and gifting them under schemes of withdrawal when they reach the age of maturity.

i think this way the government will actually recognise you as a valuable asset with a net contribution to the economy . your account will be showing a negative because you dont hold anymoney , its all circulating and moving the wheels of commerce @ national cake .
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