PASSIVE BET DELAY

News, chat and debate about the Betfair betting exchange.
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Realrocknrolla
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Derek27 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:05 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:22 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:29 pm
Why would a trader care about bet delays for bets that aren't going to be matched within a few seconds?
It's an incentive to offer rather than taking to boost IP liquidity. Being able to get prices up comfortably ahead of the takers wanting to act would is the best development for years imo. And finally something equally befeficial to them and us. It's the start of quite a few improvements if the mood music is to be believed.
It seems I've misunderstood it. I thought they were talking about offers away from the money but it says hitting the exchange unmatched. I'd welcome that. :)
+1

I think it would benefit my style of trading. Definitely would be interested in a trial run 😉
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napshnap
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"whereby any bet which would hit the exchange unmatched will skip the bet delay."

I really dont get this part. I mean, I can't understand how bf gonna implement this technically, guaranteeing that this process will be transparent and fair.

Trader clicks "place bet" button -> api sends a request to place the bet -> ("magical" part starting...) bf recives the request aaaaaaand then what?? Does bf check if there any orders available for the bet to be matched and then...:

1) ... there're no available orders -> decide that the bet should NOT be delayed -> proceed the bet to a market instantly?
2) ... there're available orders -> decide that the bet should be delayed -> proceed the bet to a market with a delay?
Last edited by napshnap on Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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megarain
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It's the same that happens on Betdaq right now.

I don't understand what your issue is.

Sure - it will help faster feed traders to provide more liquidity. But they are not scooping up money - they are leaving orders on the exchange - even if for a milli-sec.

Now maybe a trader thinks a catch is being taken - submits a bet, with 5 secs delay.

The fast feed liquidity player sees the failed catch, submits a unmatched trade - which will scoop the 5-sec delay bet - not sure
if I think Betfair should do anything about that.
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napshnap
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megarain wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:04 am
It's the same that happens on Betdaq right now.

I don't understand what your issue is.
...
But they are not scooping up money - they are leaving orders on the exchange - even if for a milli-sec.
...
See, you get it. It's a thin line, you know.
Last edited by napshnap on Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ShaunWhite
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napshnap wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:40 am
"whereby any bet which would hit the exchange unmatched will skip the bet delay."

I really dont get this part. I mean, I can't understand how bf gonna implement this technically, guaranteing that this process wil be transparent and fair.

Trader clicks "place bet" button -> api sends a request to place the bet -> ("magical" part starting...) bf recives the request aaaaaaand then what?? Does bf check if there any orders available for the bet to be matched and then...:

1) ... there're no available orders -> decide that the bet should NOT be delayed -> proceed the bet to a market instantly?
2) ... there're available orders -> decide that the bet should be delayed -> proceed the bet to a market with a delay?
These are the type of questions the #askbetfairanything channel is good for. They've created it specifically to give rapid answers to detailed technical questions to eliminated the guesswork.
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Westerner
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Isn't this going to make it easier for groundsiders to cover value prices quicker?

I'm struggling to see the benefit for in-play manual traders.

Happy for there to be a trial but suspect the benefits will mostly be seen by those big into automation. For me this seems to be a change to satisfy market makers with high end risk management tools. Manual traders will get marginalised further.

Happy to be proved incorrect as these markets are desperate for some stimulation.
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megarain
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The latency of feeds has got to improve.

I have no specific problem with anything which increases liquidity and doesn't immediately snipe a bet.

Sure, it will help a pure market maker - but everyone can decide if that 'edge' is enough for them to jump ship.
PeterLe
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Westerner wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:16 am
I'm struggling to see the benefit for in-play manual traders.
Imagine a manual in play trader (trader 1) is watching a live inplay horse racing market...(Cross Matching off for illustration purposes...)
In the closing stages, he is certain that horse X is going to win and wishes to place a large back bet..

Horse X is current trading as follows:-

Back 2.2 (£500 avail to back) , 2.1 (£500 avail to Back)

Lay Price 3, LTP 2.9

If trader 1 was to place a £1000 back bet at 1.01 milliseconds before with an opposing trader (trader 2) placing a £1000 lay bet at 2.5 (with a 1 sec delay), trader 1 would be matched at average odds of 2.15 - £1000.
With no delay to passive bets, Trader 2's lay bet would reach the market ahead of Trader 1 and Trader 1 bet would be filled at 2.5
This is a simple example but shows how liquidity is able to reach the market quicker and in this example it is a positive for the manual trader
Perhaps there is a counter argument, but that is where we need to get our thinking caps on :D
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napshnap
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PeterLe wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:44 am
...
Perhaps there is a counter argument, but that is where we need to get our thinking caps on :D
... wild Trader 3 with 0s delay appears from nowhere...
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megarain
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Why are u assuming the super-trader is right ?

The offers will only be taken if someone else feels they are value.

Would u rather see a ladder with 8 tick gaps, or a ladder seeded passively, with all odds filled ?

Maybe the passive trader's bets don't become active until 3 secs - but traders should be able to adjust, or don't play at the critical time points.
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napshnap
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megarain wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:22 am
Why are u assuming the super-trader is right ?

...
Sorry, I've edited out this part. I just afraid that it may add a huge edge to super-trader's not-so-huge (and shrinking) existent edge and it may damage markets liquidity in a long term.
But let's see how it'll fold out. Any info when they're planning to begin the trials (Shaun, I know I can search this hmm "Slack" for answers, but I dont have it because I'm a luddite)?
Last edited by napshnap on Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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megarain
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Its ok.

Most traders out there understand where edges come from.

In a way I am playing devil's advocate - there are no barriers to entry - if u think the other side has it too good, go join them.

I am trying to get my head around what u see as most egregious. Either the passive trader owning a position in the queue (which I agree, can be
worth something), or him having no delay.

The no-delay only benefits him if someone else makes a mistake - like at present. It isn't like a passive bet at 1.8 unmatched, suddenly moves itself to 1.82 and is matched.
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megarain
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I would like to understand if the passive bet is deemed passive, as there is no present money to be matched

and/or

No money is presently having a countdown clock applied to it.

For example .. the market is currently 1.7 to back, 1.8 to lay.

Passive trader offers to lay 1.74.

Another trader has just asked to back at 1.72 - (and is 3 secs into the delay before hitting the ladder).

At what rate would the in-play trader be matched? If it's 1.74, I have no problem. If it's 1.72, the passive trader lays 1.74 and Bf pocket the difference
thats not good.

A trial would sort out the worst problems.

I think for some of the v weak markets, it would be useful. For v active markets, it will make v little difference.


I will ask the Bf help suggested earlier and report back the experience.
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napshnap
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megarain wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:22 pm
I would like to understand if the passive bet is deemed passive, as there is no present money to be matched

and/or
....
I'm telling you, it's complicated as h.
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megarain
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Computers like complicated stuff.

Bf clearly see the erosion in liquidity. It's hard to fault them for trying stuff.

Anyway, let me get back to using my super-user account ... :D :D :D
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