Is betfair dead?

News, chat and debate about the Betfair betting exchange.
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ShaunWhite
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:33 pm
I'm just wondering if Betfair hoovers up when a horse runs out - a simple question YES/NO/NOT SURE
And it's a simple answer, NO, we do.
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napshnap
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:42 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:33 pm
I'm just wondering if Betfair hoovers up when a horse runs out - a simple question YES/NO/NOT SURE
And it's a simple answer, NO, we do.
Same. Bf has my trust.
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jimibt
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i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted, and then we see a screenshot of BA in practice mode where the bets aren't queued or serviced by the live matching engine. can someone explain the rationale behind this long and exhausting set of exchanges??
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Kai
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:33 pm
I'm just wondering if Betfair hoovers up when a horse runs out - a simple question YES/NO/NOT SURE
Don't think so, open unsuspended market means fastest finger first
Cardano
Posts: 215
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jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:50 pm
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted, and then we see a screenshot of BA in practice mode where the bets aren't queued or serviced by the live matching engine. can someone explain the rationale behind this long and exhausting set of exchanges??
Re your comment underlined
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted

At no point did I say I felt slighted - why would I :?:

And the whole point is you haven't answered the question - YES/NO/NOT SURE
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jimibt
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:59 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:50 pm
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted, and then we see a screenshot of BA in practice mode where the bets aren't queued or serviced by the live matching engine. can someone explain the rationale behind this long and exhausting set of exchanges??
Re your comment underlined
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted

At no point did I say I felt slighted - why would I :?:
this was where i made the inference that you may have felt slighted:
Cardano wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:10 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:37 pm
Cardano wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:37 pm
Did BF 'hoover-up' when 'West Orchard' ran-out :?:
I see no evidence it was Betfair because anyone could have done it. If it was something with no possible explanation then I'd be more sceptical.

What you might want to consider is the placing bets is far slower than cancelling them. When you saw money being "hoovered up" that would most likely be offers being withdrawn rather than taken. You'll put speculative offers into the market wanting to back a horse at 5/1 and as soon as it flicks its tail you cancel them, someone else seeing that and wanting lay it at 5/1 even acting just as quickly will be over a second too late.

Does that help?
Ok I'll try and be clearer. I place a £100 'back' bet on West Orchard just before it runs out does the BF bot grab the majority of my £100
and to answer that question, it'd have to be a NO due to the fact that Betfair are unaware of how much bets you'll have placed in practice mode.
Cardano
Posts: 215
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jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:03 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:59 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:50 pm
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted, and then we see a screenshot of BA in practice mode where the bets aren't queued or serviced by the live matching engine. can someone explain the rationale behind this long and exhausting set of exchanges??
Re your comment underlined
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted

At no point did I say I felt slighted - why would I :?:
this was where i made the inference that you may have felt slighted:
Cardano wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:10 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:37 pm

I see no evidence it was Betfair because anyone could have done it. If it was something with no possible explanation then I'd be more sceptical.

What you might want to consider is the placing bets is far slower than cancelling them. When you saw money being "hoovered up" that would most likely be offers being withdrawn rather than taken. You'll put speculative offers into the market wanting to back a horse at 5/1 and as soon as it flicks its tail you cancel them, someone else seeing that and wanting lay it at 5/1 even acting just as quickly will be over a second too late.

Does that help?
Ok I'll try and be clearer. I place a £100 'back' bet on West Orchard just before it runs out does the BF bot grab the majority of my £100
and to answer that question, it'd have to be a NO due to the fact that Betfair are unaware of how much bets you'll have placed in practice mode.
The question didn't make any reference to practice mode - refer to the original question if you are not sure :)
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jimibt
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:03 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:59 pm


Re your comment underlined
i still don't honestly get what the point was here?? all the argument about hoovering up and feeling slighted

At no point did I say I felt slighted - why would I :?:
this was where i made the inference that you may have felt slighted:
Cardano wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:10 pm


Ok I'll try and be clearer. I place a £100 'back' bet on West Orchard just before it runs out does the BF bot grab the majority of my £100
and to answer that question, it'd have to be a NO due to the fact that Betfair are unaware of how much bets you'll have placed in practice mode.
The question didn't make any reference to practice mode - refer to the original question if you are not sure :)
the original question purported to have placed bets in the live market and was asking if a BF bot could have spotted the back bets and hoovered up by laying at the same instant. the answer is still a NO (practice mode or not). there are a ton of bottors that place low lay bets in the queue WAY ahead of the event even starting. this queue order is honoured when the price is touched. it's part art, part science in knowing when to place and when to withdraw in such scenarios as it happens hyper-quick.

[edit] - as if by magic, jamesedwards alludes to something similar just a few minutes ago in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9159&start=15
Cardano
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jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:03 pm


this was where i made the inference that you may have felt slighted:



and to answer that question, it'd have to be a NO due to the fact that Betfair are unaware of how much bets you'll have placed in practice mode.
The question didn't make any reference to practice mode - refer to the original question if you are not sure :)
the original question purported to have placed bets in the live market and was asking if a BF bot could have spotted the back bets and hoovered up by laying at the same instant. the answer is still a NO (practice mode or not). there are a ton of bottors that place low lay bets in the queue WAY ahead of the event even starting. this queue order is honoured when the price is touched. it's part art, part science in knowing when to place and when to withdraw in such scenarios as it happens hyper-quick.
Best answer yet Jimi - I totally agree - there are bots effectively hoovering up when things like a horse runs-out from a seemingly strong winning chance - and could BF be in there as well as there liquidity partners
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jimibt
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:31 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm

The question didn't make any reference to practice mode - refer to the original question if you are not sure :)
the original question purported to have placed bets in the live market and was asking if a BF bot could have spotted the back bets and hoovered up by laying at the same instant. the answer is still a NO (practice mode or not). there are a ton of bottors that place low lay bets in the queue WAY ahead of the event even starting. this queue order is honoured when the price is touched. it's part art, part science in knowing when to place and when to withdraw in such scenarios as it happens hyper-quick.
Best answer yet Jimi - I totally agree - there are bots effectively hoovering up when things like a horse runs-out from a seemingly strong winning chance - and could BF be in there as well as there liquidity partners
for sure BF can't be seen (and in particular be audited and seen) to be participating in the markets in a competitive manner. the sole participation of BF should be to facilitate XM and not to be offering or taking prices. as for the scale of liquidity partners - that's anyone's guess. but rest assured, there are quite a few on here that have explored all corners of offering prices and i'd estimate that this would be part of the game plan.
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jamesedwards
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jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:23 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:12 pm
jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:03 pm


this was where i made the inference that you may have felt slighted:



and to answer that question, it'd have to be a NO due to the fact that Betfair are unaware of how much bets you'll have placed in practice mode.
The question didn't make any reference to practice mode - refer to the original question if you are not sure :)
the original question purported to have placed bets in the live market and was asking if a BF bot could have spotted the back bets and hoovered up by laying at the same instant. the answer is still a NO (practice mode or not). there are a ton of bottors that place low lay bets in the queue WAY ahead of the event even starting. this queue order is honoured when the price is touched. it's part art, part science in knowing when to place and when to withdraw in such scenarios as it happens hyper-quick.

[edit] - as if by magic, jamesedwards alludes to something similar just a few minutes ago in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9159&start=15
It's not similar. I was talking about BF allowing their partner liquidity provider to place trades as markets are first created in order for them to start their initial positions at the front of every queue. There is no way Betfair place any of their own trades into any market or allow anyone to skip the usual delays or to push in front of the queue.
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Kai
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jimibt wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:50 pm
can someone explain the rationale behind this long and exhausting set of exchanges??
Taking the scenic route to problem solving is often far more appealing to people :D
Trap1
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numberzero wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:36 am

In my experience, with a bank of 10,000, I could earn 5% per day 8-10 yeras ago .Now I can't guarantee even 0.5%.And this despite the fact that I have become more experienced.Someone will say that you can earn. But I think that the exchange has become simply inefficient, I see no reason to waste time on it. Efficiency has dropped significantly, just physics.What is the point of spending 10 days to earn the amount that you previously earned in 1 day?
I guess a lot depends on if you can earn more elsewhere and easier. Those early salad days of the exchange are long gone. Newcomers have popped along and will happily live off a fraction of what used to available to earn, that free money wasn't ever going to be there forever.

I do think liquidity is dropping though and some markets are now dead pre off, whereas in the past they'd be ticking along nicely. Even football markets seem to be bare compared to the old days but maybe I've still got my rose tinted glasses on.

I'm just glad I managed to fill up during those early years as the modern Betfair trader/Botter seems to have to take it a lot more seriously to make money than we had to.
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Derek27
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Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:33 pm

I'm just wondering if Betfair hoovers up when a horse runs out - it's a simple question YES/NO/NOT SURE
The simple answer is NO. They cannot possibly hoover up money that doesn't exist.

If a £100 bet is taken in practice mode, you can be confident that the price was taken, but how much of the £100 would have been taken cannot be known. As I said, just £1 matched at a higher price would mean that in real life, your £100 bet would have to be taken for the price to be higher. But if you really had £100 in the market it's possible that only £1 really got matched and £99 remains unmatched.
Last edited by Derek27 on Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Derek27
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:38 pm
Cardano wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:09 pm
If you want to see the bet matching time to the millisecond you need to save the order book from the api.

Please see attached file
You've highlighted the bet reference not the time. The time is in whole seconds, And it shows bets over a 7 second time period?
It was Jim that highlighted the bet references to show he's in practice mode.
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