Ukraine Crisis

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Derek27
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greenmark wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:40 pm
Russia vacates Snake Island as a gesture of goodwill to allow grain exports to happen.
With the fog of mistrust we have now, does anyone trust anything uttered by Russia, Ukraine or Nato.
We are back in a cold war of rhetoric and threats.
Jeez, it could have been so much better with Russia on board at Nato.
But it flopped and that possibility has now receded to beyond my lifetime.
What a crap show!
Snake Island was up in smoke when they "vacated" it. ;)

If Russia was a member of NATO, how would that stop them from invading Ukraine and what happens if a NATO member attacks another NATO member? :)
Last edited by Derek27 on Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Emmson
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I believe that happened in the 70s Greece and Turkey.

NATO has always been a red herring, evil despot Putin does not want a thriving democracy on his border as that will turn young Russians heads.
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Derek27
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Emmson wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:42 pm
I believe that happened in the 70s Greece and Turkey.

NATO has always been a red herring, evil despot Putin does not want a thriving democracy on his border as that will turn young Russians heads.
Greece and Turkey were close to war over newly discovered gas fields but it was resolved. If they went to war, NATO would side with the country being attacked, but if there were skirmishes and tit-for-tat attacks it may not be clear who the aggressor is.

If Russia was a member of NATO I reckon they'd bomb themselves, claim Ukraine was responsible and invoke article 5. :)
Emmson
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I actually had in mind Cyprus in my above post but am very open to being corrected.
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Derek27
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Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
Archery1969
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Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:43 pm
Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
The UK wouldn't goto War with Russia on its own anyway. If it did it would be fought via Trident submarines, Navy launching 1,000s of Cruise Missiles and the RAF using the new F35's we bought from USA. I very much doubt you would ever see actual boots on the ground fighting street by street in Ukraine. Even if that did happen, from what I have seen from the Russians they would probably put their guns down and run away from the Gurkha's, Para's and Royal Marines. Plus I doubt BJ would be that much involved from a military point of view.
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Derek27
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Archery1969 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:05 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:43 pm
Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
The UK wouldn't goto War with Russia on its own anyway. If it did it would be fought via Trident submarines, Navy launching 1,000s of Cruise Missiles and the RAF using the new F35's we bought from USA. I very much doubt you would ever see actual boots on the ground fighting street by street in Ukraine. Even if that did happen, from what I have seen from the Russians they would probably put their guns down and run away from the Gurkha's, Para's and Royal Marines. Plus I doubt BJ would be that much involved from a military point of view.
BJ ultimately has to make any decision to fund the military.
Archery1969
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Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:36 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:05 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:43 pm
Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
The UK wouldn't goto War with Russia on its own anyway. If it did it would be fought via Trident submarines, Navy launching 1,000s of Cruise Missiles and the RAF using the new F35's we bought from USA. I very much doubt you would ever see actual boots on the ground fighting street by street in Ukraine. Even if that did happen, from what I have seen from the Russians they would probably put their guns down and run away from the Gurkha's, Para's and Royal Marines. Plus I doubt BJ would be that much involved from a military point of view.
BJ ultimately has to make any decision to fund the military.
Don't think it's his decision to be honest, Rishi seems to be the one pulling the finance strings and saying what money he can or can't have for various departments. I think its well documented that they fell out over furlough and Rishi didn't want to offer any more financial help to households recently. Currently the debt interest alone is £80 billion, with the recession coming things are going to get pretty bad for many millions. Not sure any more government financial help will be fourth coming.
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napshnap
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Archery1969 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:05 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:43 pm
Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
...from what I have seen from the Russians they would probably put their guns down and run away from the Gurkha's, Para's and Royal Marines...
Image

ps I know that Joe Pesci should be Napoleon, but it is what it is.
greenmark
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napshnap wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:31 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:05 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:43 pm
Former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander, General Richard Shirreff says Britain is nowhere near ready for a serious war after years of defence cuts.

No worries though, we got Johnson at the helm to sort things out. :)
...from what I have seen from the Russians they would probably put their guns down and run away from the Gurkha's, Para's and Royal Marines...
Image

ps I know that Joe Pesci should be Napoleon, but it is what it is.
Clever and true. But flawed in that those were Russian successes fighting off expansionist aggression.
Russia in Ukraine is the expansionist aggressor.
And before you retort "NATO is expansionist!" - yes by invitation, even pleading, from nations that feel threatened by Russia and feel safer in the US/EU/NATO family.
And most important NATO nations haven't invaded anybody without international coaltions (including Russia).
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napshnap
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Screw all of that, greenmark. I'm tired of labeling and and mutual accusations of "*isms", I desperately want to jump into a spaceship and fly away to some distant space pirate colony and shoot down any incoming ship if it carries any damn ideology on board apart from anarchy.
greenmark
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napshnap wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:40 pm
Screw all of that, greenmark. I'm tired of labeling and and mutual accusations of "*isms", I desperately want to jump into a spaceship and fly away to some distant space pirate colony and shoot down any incoming ship if it carries any damn ideology on board apart from anarchy.
Anarchy being
1.
a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.
2.
absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

And yet you support Putin?
But I disagree with you profoundly that anarchy is any kind of solution.
Anarchy reigned before civilisation existed. And persisted (in the UK ) throughout feudal squabbling.
And finally fell before a general desire for stability.
Anarchy will always will be a disaster as a model for a stable society.
Any system that doesn't map over human nature is doomed.
Anarchy is one. Communism is another.
Anyhow I'm off. I'm being called to marinade some pork before a stir-fry later. 1st world problems eh?
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napshnap
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greenmark wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:47 pm
napshnap wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:40 pm
Screw all of that, greenmark. I'm tired of labeling and and mutual accusations of "*isms", I desperately want to jump into a spaceship and fly away to some distant space pirate colony and shoot down any incoming ship if it carries any damn ideology on board apart from anarchy.
Anarchy being
1.
a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.
2.
absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

And yet you support Putin?
But I disagree with you profoundly that anarchy is any kind of solution.
Anarchy reigned before civilisation existed. And persisted (in the UK ) throughout feudal squabbling.
And finally fell before a general desire for stability.
Anarchy will always will be a disaster as a model for a stable society.
Any system that doesn't map over human nature is doomed.
Anarchy is one. Communism is another.
Anyhow I'm off. I'm being called to marinade some pork before a stir-fry later. 1st world problems eh?
I'm not a big fan of the state, but some of my views on some problems may overlap with his (the president).

Maybe anarchism is idealistic, but as its founders I believe in Humanity, in its ability to coexist without any racketeering and puppeteering structure above. I don't believe that the Man need to be changed, reprogrammed, enhanced or fixed (leftists idea-fix), I don't think the Man should be treated like a freaking poodle.

Bon appetit).
Last edited by napshnap on Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trader Pat
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I think the human race has long since proved that we can't govern ourselves so maybe the time is right for an alien overlord to come along and sort us out.

My vote goes to Diana from 'V' or Seven of Nine from her Voyager days
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napshnap
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Trader Pat wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:05 pm
I think the human race has long since proved that we can't govern ourselves so maybe the time is right for an alien overlord to come along and sort us out.

My vote goes to Diana from 'V' or Seven of Nine from her Voyager days
You know what, Pat? I thought about it, so much has happened in the past couple of years. So fast and so staged, like fkn b-movie. So if aliens will arrive - I won't bat an eyelid. I run out my stock of surprises.
Last edited by napshnap on Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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