Ukraine Crisis

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Archangel
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The Wagner group say they are now leaving Bakhmut, and handing it over to regular Russian military. Their leader Prigozhin seems to enjoy the limelight and telling the world what their plans are. Quite bizarre. There seems to be a bit of a power struggle going on between Wagner and the Army. One wonders why Putin would allow a mercenary group to have so much influence, but maybe he sees it as his private army as an insurance policy in case someone tries to oust him!
Archery1969
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Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 6:53 pm
The Wagner group say they are now leaving Bakhmut, and handing it over to regular Russian military. Their leader Prigozhin seems to enjoy the limelight and telling the world what their plans are. Quite bizarre. There seems to be a bit of a power struggle going on between Wagner and the Army. One wonders why Putin would allow a mercenary group to have so much influence, but maybe he sees it as his private army as an insurance policy in case someone tries to oust him!
The Wagner group have admitted that 20,000 of their men have been killed and thousands more wounded taking one city/town. I wouldn’t class that as a success as that place has no military significance. But it does mean that the Russian Army didn’t suffer the same losses. Will be interesting to see if Ukraine tries to retake it as that could cause Putin big problems at home if even more body bags start arriving. Some estimate that the Wagner group has lost half its men and equipment so far fighting in Ukraine. When and if the counter strikes comes there might not be many soldiers left if fight anyone.
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Archangel
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Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:02 pm


The Wagner group have admitted that 20,000 of their men have been killed and thousands more wounded taking one city/town. I wouldn’t class that as a success as that place has no military significance. But it does mean that the Russian Army didn’t suffer the same losses. Will be interesting to see if Ukraine tries to retake it as that could cause Putin big problems at home if even more body bags start arriving. Some estimate that the Wagner group has lost half its men and equipment so far fighting in Ukraine. When and if the counter strikes comes there might not be many soldiers left if fight anyone.
I saw a video of the Wagner recruitment technique. Going to Russian prisons and telling the inmates if they join and fight at the front they can earn their freedom. If they show any cowardice or try to retreat they will be shot! Basically the tactics used in Stalingrad
greenmark
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Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:01 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:02 pm


The Wagner group have admitted that 20,000 of their men have been killed and thousands more wounded taking one city/town. I wouldn’t class that as a success as that place has no military significance. But it does mean that the Russian Army didn’t suffer the same losses. Will be interesting to see if Ukraine tries to retake it as that could cause Putin big problems at home if even more body bags start arriving. Some estimate that the Wagner group has lost half its men and equipment so far fighting in Ukraine. When and if the counter strikes comes there might not be many soldiers left if fight anyone.
I saw a video of the Wagner recruitment technique. Going to Russian prisons and telling the inmates if they join and fight at the front they can earn their freedom. If they show any cowardice or try to retreat they will be shot! Basically the tactics used in Stalingrad
Forget Wagner. Where is the Russian military might. Seems to me the average Russian doesn't give a flying f*** about Ukraine or Putin's warped desire to recreate the USSR or colonise Kyiv (the heart of Russian Orthodox Christianity according to Putin).
Not so long ago we were all getting along fine. Western companies were in Russia doing very nicely. They were more than welcome. 0
We co-operated over Afghanistan, we agreed on intervention in Iraq et al.
Nothing has changed except Putin's ego has corrupted society. Nice job Vlad!!!!
Archery1969
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Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:01 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:02 pm


The Wagner group have admitted that 20,000 of their men have been killed and thousands more wounded taking one city/town. I wouldn’t class that as a success as that place has no military significance. But it does mean that the Russian Army didn’t suffer the same losses. Will be interesting to see if Ukraine tries to retake it as that could cause Putin big problems at home if even more body bags start arriving. Some estimate that the Wagner group has lost half its men and equipment so far fighting in Ukraine. When and if the counter strikes comes there might not be many soldiers left if fight anyone.
I saw a video of the Wagner recruitment technique. Going to Russian prisons and telling the inmates if they join and fight at the front they can earn their freedom. If they show any cowardice or try to retreat they will be shot! Basically the tactics used in Stalingrad
As of January 2023 Russia has 433,000 people in prison. 20 years ago they had over 1 million locked up.

So, I guess they have some in reserve to fill the coffins and bags if told to do so.

😢
Archery1969
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greenmark wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:22 pm
Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:01 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:02 pm


The Wagner group have admitted that 20,000 of their men have been killed and thousands more wounded taking one city/town. I wouldn’t class that as a success as that place has no military significance. But it does mean that the Russian Army didn’t suffer the same losses. Will be interesting to see if Ukraine tries to retake it as that could cause Putin big problems at home if even more body bags start arriving. Some estimate that the Wagner group has lost half its men and equipment so far fighting in Ukraine. When and if the counter strikes comes there might not be many soldiers left if fight anyone.
I saw a video of the Wagner recruitment technique. Going to Russian prisons and telling the inmates if they join and fight at the front they can earn their freedom. If they show any cowardice or try to retreat they will be shot! Basically the tactics used in Stalingrad
Forget Wagner. Where is the Russian military might. Seems to me the average Russian doesn't give a flying f*** about Ukraine or Putin's warped desire to recreate the USSR or colonise Kyiv (the heart of Russian Orthodox Christianity according to Putin).
Not so long ago we were all getting along fine. Western companies were in Russia doing very nicely. They were more than welcome. 0
We co-operated over Afghanistan, we agreed on intervention in Iraq et al.
Nothing has changed except Putin's ego has corrupted society. Nice job Vlad!!!!
The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) estimates that Russia has lost 25% of its Army in personnel and equipment to date.

It’s no longer a case of Putin waiting it out to see what happens in the US elections, assuming the republicans start pulling the plug if they win.

The CSIS says if Ukraine launches a major counter offensive and Russia loses anymore personnel and equipment then it could be brought to the negotiating table well before the winter.
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Archangel
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Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm



The CSIS says if Ukraine launches a major counter offensive and Russia loses anymore personnel and equipment then it could be brought to the negotiating table well before the winter.
They could be interesting negotiations if they happen. Ukraine has stated they want all Russian troops out of Ukranian territory. But do they mean pre 2022, or pre 2014, which includes Crimea ? If Ukraine smash through the Russian lines and force them into a full retreat, they can cut off the south and isolate Crimea.
There is no way Putin can lose Crimea also, he might as well put a gun to his own head
Archery1969
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Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:15 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm



The CSIS says if Ukraine launches a major counter offensive and Russia loses anymore personnel and equipment then it could be brought to the negotiating table well before the winter.
They could be interesting negotiations if they happen. Ukraine has stated they want all Russian troops out of Ukranian territory. But do they mean pre 2022, or pre 2014, which includes Crimea ? If Ukraine smash through the Russian lines and force them into a full retreat, they can cut off the south and isolate Crimea.
There is no way Putin can lose Crimea also, he might as well put a gun to his own head
He might nuke Ukraine if they happens as he won’t have anything else to lose. Apart from accidentally falling out of a window.
greenmark
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:56 pm
Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:15 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 pm



The CSIS says if Ukraine launches a major counter offensive and Russia loses anymore personnel and equipment then it could be brought to the negotiating table well before the winter.
They could be interesting negotiations if they happen. Ukraine has stated they want all Russian troops out of Ukranian territory. But do they mean pre 2022, or pre 2014, which includes Crimea ? If Ukraine smash through the Russian lines and force them into a full retreat, they can cut off the south and isolate Crimea.
There is no way Putin can lose Crimea also, he might as well put a gun to his own head
He might nuke Ukraine if they happens as he won’t have anything else to lose. Apart from accidentally falling out of a window.
I think Crimea is gone, Donbas also. And we're in a new cold war with a man (Putin) that has skillfully manouevered himself into total power within Russia. This is not a democratic country that embraces free speech or a free media. Russia is now a warped appendage of Putin's ego.
I would like Medvedev to stand up. Release Navalny, it's the only decent thing to do.
Bring back democracy to Russia.
Archery1969
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Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:25 am
Location: Newport

The US and UK have procured 500 Ghost drones for Ukraine.

- Range: 5 miles
- Flying time: 60 mins
- Camera: 500 meter infrared
- Altitude: 12,000 feet
- Sound level: 26db

They have been trialled by the RAF, Royal Marines, US Rangers and USAF for 5 months.

Looking at the specs, one might think, what’s the big deal. Well, you can’t here them and a night with the infrared camera they can track the enemy who won’t know they are being watched/followed/tracked etc.
Selmer
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:04 pm

greenmark wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:22 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:56 pm
Archangel wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:15 pm


They could be interesting negotiations if they happen. Ukraine has stated they want all Russian troops out of Ukranian territory. But do they mean pre 2022, or pre 2014, which includes Crimea ? If Ukraine smash through the Russian lines and force them into a full retreat, they can cut off the south and isolate Crimea.
There is no way Putin can lose Crimea also, he might as well put a gun to his own head
He might nuke Ukraine if they happens as he won’t have anything else to lose. Apart from accidentally falling out of a window.
I think Crimea is gone, Donbas also. And we're in a new cold war with a man (Putin) that has skillfully manouevered himself into total power within Russia. This is not a democratic country that embraces free speech or a free media. Russia is now a warped appendage of Putin's ego.
I would like Medvedev to stand up. Release Navalny, it's the only decent thing to do.
Bring back democracy to Russia.
Everybody is talking about those territories, how about people who live there? Ukrainian artillery has been shelling central areas of Donetsk (not military objects, just people`s houses, markets etc.) for a long time now. Crimea wasn`t bombed, but back in 2014 after it had been annexed, Ukraine cut off water and electricity supply causing many people to struggle. Do you think they still want to be a part of Ukraine? And what is Ukraine going to do with 2-3 million people loyal to Russia, let alone the language issues?

It`s also interesting that the whole world condemns lack of democracy in Russia, meanwhile in Ukraine it might be even worse. Everything that doesn`t go in line with the government policy is called 'pro-Russian' and banned immediately. Men are locked inside the country with no right to go abroad and are taken to army by force. People are imprisoned simply for reposting something on facebook or even liking someone`s post. On TV, most of the programmes are directed at provoking more and more hatred towards all Russians, not only the ones taking part in war crimes.

I am quite convinced that Ukrainian government is not interested to stop the war as the current state of affairs allows them to remain in power and keep stealing more of the international help. They already announced that the parliament election that was supposed to be in October 2023 will probably be postponed if the war is not over by that time.

It`s not something I heard from Russian propaganda - I lived in Kiev in 2022, so it`s all first-hand experience.
greenmark
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Selmer wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 2:40 pm
greenmark wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:22 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 9:56 pm


He might nuke Ukraine if they happens as he won’t have anything else to lose. Apart from accidentally falling out of a window.
I think Crimea is gone, Donbas also. And we're in a new cold war with a man (Putin) that has skillfully manouevered himself into total power within Russia. This is not a democratic country that embraces free speech or a free media. Russia is now a warped appendage of Putin's ego.
I would like Medvedev to stand up. Release Navalny, it's the only decent thing to do.
Bring back democracy to Russia.
Everybody is talking about those territories, how about people who live there? Ukrainian artillery has been shelling central areas of Donetsk (not military objects, just people`s houses, markets etc.) for a long time now. Crimea wasn`t bombed, but back in 2014 after it had been annexed, Ukraine cut off water and electricity supply causing many people to struggle. Do you think they still want to be a part of Ukraine? And what is Ukraine going to do with 2-3 million people loyal to Russia, let alone the language issues?

It`s also interesting that the whole world condemns lack of democracy in Russia, meanwhile in Ukraine it might be even worse. Everything that doesn`t go in line with the government policy is called 'pro-Russian' and banned immediately. Men are locked inside the country with no right to go abroad and are taken to army by force. People are imprisoned simply for reposting something on facebook or even liking someone`s post. On TV, most of the programmes are directed at provoking more and more hatred towards all Russians, not only the ones taking part in war crimes.

I am quite convinced that Ukrainian government is not interested to stop the war as the current state of affairs allows them to remain in power and keep stealing more of the international help. They already announced that the parliament election that was supposed to be in October 2023 will probably be postponed if the war is not over by that time.

It`s not something I heard from Russian propaganda - I lived in Kiev in 2022, so it`s all first-hand experience.
It's Kyiv.

I know British folk with Urkainian roots and they hate the concept of the USSR with a fury. That's why their relatives left.
I don't hate Russians. That's just dumb.
Ukraine won't get access to the West without democracy and human rights. The lack of the latter is why Russia was refused access to NATO and the lack the the former is why Russia will never be part of the UN/NATO/EU until Russians get rid of Putin.
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napshnap
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greenmark wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 4:55 pm

...
Ukraine won't get access to the West without democracy and human rights. The lack of the latter is why Russia was refused access to NATO and the lack the the former is why Russia will never be part of the UN/NATO/EU until Russians get rid of Putin.
They managed to squeeze in the sick man of europe so... not a problem then, eh?

Derek said we were ugly and "prom queen" nato refused us. They didn't even allow us to participate in the superfriends Iraq adventure (but our rebellious neighbor was allowed).
Selmer
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:04 pm

greenmark wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 4:55 pm
Selmer wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 2:40 pm
greenmark wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 10:22 pm

I think Crimea is gone, Donbas also. And we're in a new cold war with a man (Putin) that has skillfully manouevered himself into total power within Russia. This is not a democratic country that embraces free speech or a free media. Russia is now a warped appendage of Putin's ego.
I would like Medvedev to stand up. Release Navalny, it's the only decent thing to do.
Bring back democracy to Russia.
Everybody is talking about those territories, how about people who live there? Ukrainian artillery has been shelling central areas of Donetsk (not military objects, just people`s houses, markets etc.) for a long time now. Crimea wasn`t bombed, but back in 2014 after it had been annexed, Ukraine cut off water and electricity supply causing many people to struggle. Do you think they still want to be a part of Ukraine? And what is Ukraine going to do with 2-3 million people loyal to Russia, let alone the language issues?

It`s also interesting that the whole world condemns lack of democracy in Russia, meanwhile in Ukraine it might be even worse. Everything that doesn`t go in line with the government policy is called 'pro-Russian' and banned immediately. Men are locked inside the country with no right to go abroad and are taken to army by force. People are imprisoned simply for reposting something on facebook or even liking someone`s post. On TV, most of the programmes are directed at provoking more and more hatred towards all Russians, not only the ones taking part in war crimes.

I am quite convinced that Ukrainian government is not interested to stop the war as the current state of affairs allows them to remain in power and keep stealing more of the international help. They already announced that the parliament election that was supposed to be in October 2023 will probably be postponed if the war is not over by that time.

It`s not something I heard from Russian propaganda - I lived in Kiev in 2022, so it`s all first-hand experience.
It's Kyiv.

I know British folk with Urkainian roots and they hate the concept of the USSR with a fury. That's why their relatives left.
I don't hate Russians. That's just dumb.
Ukraine won't get access to the West without democracy and human rights. The lack of the latter is why Russia was refused access to NATO and the lack the the former is why Russia will never be part of the UN/NATO/EU until Russians get rid of Putin.
Does it really matter whether it`s Kiev or Kyiv? One is Russian transliteration, the other one is Ukrainian. Since 90% of Kiev population are native Russian speakers and even one of the airports in the city is abbreviated as IEV, I always say Kiev.

I`m not saying the concept of the USSR is good, I`m saying Crimea and Donbass people are happy to be a part of Russia, so why not leave them alone?

Maybe Ukraine also needs to get rid of Zelenskiy as there is no democracy or human rights at the moment.
greenmark
Posts: 5069
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Selmer wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 5:50 pm
greenmark wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 4:55 pm
Selmer wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 2:40 pm


Everybody is talking about those territories, how about people who live there? Ukrainian artillery has been shelling central areas of Donetsk (not military objects, just people`s houses, markets etc.) for a long time now. Crimea wasn`t bombed, but back in 2014 after it had been annexed, Ukraine cut off water and electricity supply causing many people to struggle. Do you think they still want to be a part of Ukraine? And what is Ukraine going to do with 2-3 million people loyal to Russia, let alone the language issues?

It`s also interesting that the whole world condemns lack of democracy in Russia, meanwhile in Ukraine it might be even worse. Everything that doesn`t go in line with the government policy is called 'pro-Russian' and banned immediately. Men are locked inside the country with no right to go abroad and are taken to army by force. People are imprisoned simply for reposting something on facebook or even liking someone`s post. On TV, most of the programmes are directed at provoking more and more hatred towards all Russians, not only the ones taking part in war crimes.

I am quite convinced that Ukrainian government is not interested to stop the war as the current state of affairs allows them to remain in power and keep stealing more of the international help. They already announced that the parliament election that was supposed to be in October 2023 will probably be postponed if the war is not over by that time.

It`s not something I heard from Russian propaganda - I lived in Kiev in 2022, so it`s all first-hand experience.
It's Kyiv.

I know British folk with Urkainian roots and they hate the concept of the USSR with a fury. That's why their relatives left.
I don't hate Russians. That's just dumb.
Ukraine won't get access to the West without democracy and human rights. The lack of the latter is why Russia was refused access to NATO and the lack the the former is why Russia will never be part of the UN/NATO/EU until Russians get rid of Putin.
Does it really matter whether it`s Kiev or Kyiv? One is Russian transliteration, the other one is Ukrainian. Since 90% of Kiev population are native Russian speakers and even one of the airports in the city is abbreviated as IEV, I always say Kiev.

I`m not saying the concept of the USSR is good, I`m saying Crimea and Donbass people are happy to be a part of Russia, so why not leave them alone?

Maybe Ukraine also needs to get rid of Zelenskiy as there is no democracy or human rights at the moment.
"I`m saying Crimea and Donbass people are happy to be a part of Russia, so why not leave them alone?"

Ukraine in it's current form was created by Russia. Why does Putin believe he can take back tracts of land?
Why did the populations of Crimea and Donbas not integrate with Ukraine?

This is like pre-WW1 stupid posturing.
How long do we have to fight over borders? It's just cretinous.
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