Well, it's obviously not a hippie world we live in. I personally tired of this human civilizations d1k swinging, I want us to the Space... to d1k swing with some aliens for distant planets and stars!
Ukraine Crisis
Hippie?
The suggestion that military might is a sensible solution to our (and I mean OUR) global problems is comic.
Let's rewind several months.
Ukraine invades Russia. Do you really believe NATO would have supported that?
"The suggestion that military might..."
That's a necessary evil (and some huge huge feeder for war priests).
"Let's rewind several months."
In that "sterile" circumstances you gave maybe not. But it's not how it usually starts, there is always some part that feels (or/and declares) itself vulnerable (in this real case there were DNR and LNR). In your scenario it could be some Kursk People's Republic which should be helped and in this case I believe nato would have supported unofficially.
This time he tried (and failed) to take Kyiv. If Ukraine didn't have a military it would be part of Russia by now.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:06 pmWhy didn't he "just walked in" in 2014? It was way way easy back then (their main force was kaput, they fought with sticks and shovels and the world didn't care what those crazy slavs do to each other), but he didn't (and he was heavily criticised for that by some circles).
More likely that elections would have been held with pro-Russia candidates and maybe in some very very distant future it would join some union with Russia. Russia would not act so clumsily in this situation, no need to hurry unlike it was with Crimea.Derek27 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:57 pmThis time he tried (and failed) to take Kyiv. If Ukraine didn't have a military it would be part of Russia by now.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:06 pmWhy didn't he "just walked in" in 2014? It was way way easy back then (their main force was kaput, they fought with sticks and shovels and the world didn't care what those crazy slavs do to each other), but he didn't (and he was heavily criticised for that by some circles).
OK. You are 100% in favour of the DONBAS as Russian satellite state?napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:31 pm"The suggestion that military might..."
That's a necessary evil (and some huge huge feeder for war priests).
"Let's rewind several months."
In that "sterile" circumstances you gave maybe not. But it's not how it usually starts, there is always some part that feels (or/and declares) itself vulnerable (in this real case there were DNR and LNR). In your scenario it could be some Kursk People's Republic which should be helped and in this case I believe nato would have supported unofficially.
So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?
Why bomb Odesa after signing an agreement not to do so?
"OK. You are 100% in favour of the DONBAS as Russian satellite state?"greenmark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:21 pmOK. You are 100% in favour of the DONBAS as Russian satellite state?napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:31 pm"The suggestion that military might..."
That's a necessary evil (and some huge huge feeder for war priests).
"Let's rewind several months."
In that "sterile" circumstances you gave maybe not. But it's not how it usually starts, there is always some part that feels (or/and declares) itself vulnerable (in this real case there were DNR and LNR). In your scenario it could be some Kursk People's Republic which should be helped and in this case I believe nato would have supported unofficially.
So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?
Why bomb Odesa after signing an agreement not to do so?
Hmm... If they think that their representation in the Ukrainian state was lost, that they are pro-Russian and prefer the Russian language and suffer for their disagreement with the imposed by force policy of the Ukrainian state - then welcome to the big family!
"So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?"
Sorry, I don't get it, can you rephrase?
"Why bomb Odesa after signing an agreement not to do so?"
I don't know, but that caught my eye to, I've read about the agreement and next day I read about strike to military objects. Maybe these were very important military objects, I don't know. I can only speculate that it makes sense to move or deploy something important secretly hoping that this new agreement will cover this up. It seems they (ua) miscalculated.
Taking charge of a country by force and having elections is the same as taking over a country.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:15 pmMore likely that elections would have been held with pro-Russia candidates and maybe in some very very distant future it would join some union with Russia. Russia would not act so clumsily in this situation, no need to hurry unlike it was with Crimea.Derek27 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:57 pmThis time he tried (and failed) to take Kyiv. If Ukraine didn't have a military it would be part of Russia by now.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:06 pm
Why didn't he "just walked in" in 2014? It was way way easy back then (their main force was kaput, they fought with sticks and shovels and the world didn't care what those crazy slavs do to each other), but he didn't (and he was heavily criticised for that by some circles).
"So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?"napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:35 pm"OK. You are 100% in favour of the DONBAS as Russian satellite state?"greenmark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:21 pmOK. You are 100% in favour of the DONBAS as Russian satellite state?napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:31 pm
"The suggestion that military might..."
That's a necessary evil (and some huge huge feeder for war priests).
"Let's rewind several months."
In that "sterile" circumstances you gave maybe not. But it's not how it usually starts, there is always some part that feels (or/and declares) itself vulnerable (in this real case there were DNR and LNR). In your scenario it could be some Kursk People's Republic which should be helped and in this case I believe nato would have supported unofficially.
So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?
Why bomb Odesa after signing an agreement not to do so?
Hmm... If they think that their representation in the Ukrainian state was lost, that they are pro-Russian and prefer the Russian language and suffer for their disagreement with the imposed by force policy of the Ukrainian state - then welcome to the big family!
"So why Crimea, why obliteraration of the Black Sea coastline?"
Sorry, I don't get it, can you rephrase?
"Why bomb Odesa after signing an agreement not to do so?"
I don't know, but that caught my eye to, I've read about the agreement and next day I read about strike to military objects. Maybe these were very important military objects, I don't know. I can only speculate that it makes sense to move or deploy something important secretly hoping that this new agreement will cover this up. It seems they (ua) miscalculated.
Sorry, I don't get it, can you rephrase?
============
One word - Mariupol. Total destruction as a means to an end. To join the south of Ukraine to Russia and Crimea and block support to Ukraine from the Black Sea.
Strategically it makes sense, but it's a level of brutality Europe hasn't seen since Bosnia.
Russian's should be ashamed to be a part of it.
Can't agree more on that, greenmark. Despite russian forces tried to limit damage as much as possible - warfare is a warfare. I could argue about nato's tactics in such situations, but I won't in respect to the dead civilians.
Seeing those lifeless burnt buildings still standing there against the blue sky and thinking that these ruined flats belong to someone who maybe dead is a heartbreaking (and frightening - you won't understand, but it has this "domestic effect" cause I can look out of my window and I'll see almost the same buildings, architecture. It can't be put into words, you have to feel it), but life is slowly coming back to Mariupol. There are vids on yt, just daylife routine without comments, how they rebuild back what been taken from them (and I'm talking not only about material side of it). These vids are very (you know it's not easy to find right word), very very healing (don't be lazy to search them), they restore the faith in humanity which was voilated by the horrors of war. It's like the life wins back. I heard there are a lot of volunteers and workers from Russia who helps them to rebuilt btw.
Seeing those lifeless burnt buildings still standing there against the blue sky and thinking that these ruined flats belong to someone who maybe dead is a heartbreaking (and frightening - you won't understand, but it has this "domestic effect" cause I can look out of my window and I'll see almost the same buildings, architecture. It can't be put into words, you have to feel it), but life is slowly coming back to Mariupol. There are vids on yt, just daylife routine without comments, how they rebuild back what been taken from them (and I'm talking not only about material side of it). These vids are very (you know it's not easy to find right word), very very healing (don't be lazy to search them), they restore the faith in humanity which was voilated by the horrors of war. It's like the life wins back. I heard there are a lot of volunteers and workers from Russia who helps them to rebuilt btw.
OK you're totally behind Putin. I think he's a thug. I can't se how you think total destruction, then rebuilding is a clever approach. It's plainly flipping stupid and indescribably wasteful of human life. Both at an individual level of each human slaughtered, but also in terms of the cost of lives built over decades and generations just cast to the wind as if they are irrelevent compared to the arrognance of your current leader.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:39 pmCan't agree more on that, greenmark. Despite russian forces tried to limit damage as much as possible - warfare is a warfare. I could argue about nato's tactics in such situations, but I won't in respect to the dead civilians.
Seeing those lifeless burnt buildings still standing there against the blue sky and thinking that these ruined flats belong to someone who maybe dead is a heartbreaking (and frightening - you won't understand, but it has this "domestic effect" cause I can look out of my window and I'll see almost the same buildings, architecture. It can't be put into words, you have to feel it), but life is slowly coming back to Mariupol. There are vids on yt, just daylife rutine without comments, how they rebuild back what been taken from them (and I'm talking not only about material side of it). These vids are very (you know it's not easy to find right word), very very healing (don't be lazy to search them), they restore the faith in humanity which was voilated by the horrors of war. It's like the life wins back. I heard there are a lot of volunteers and workers from Russia who helps them to rebuilt btw.
I don't know what you want from me, I'm not competent to make such decisions. I'm not, you know, the Narrator from "Fight Club" making decision what will be better to the company: to call off defected cars, save lifes and take a huge loss, or give it a green light, get people killed and pay some fines. I don't want to even try to "calculate" such stuff and I don't have a fckn "magic tv-remote" to backwind everything back!
I don't even like those "calculators", in the Watchmen I was on a Rorschach side.
I don't even like those "calculators", in the Watchmen I was on a Rorschach side.
You've obviously been watching Putin TV. His forces are indiscriminately bombing residential areas into submission, hospitals, children, women have been raped in front of their children, and there's zero attempt to limit any damage. They used the same tactics in Syria.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:39 pmDespite russian forces tried to limit damage as much as possible...
...but life is slowly coming back to Mariupol. There are vids on yt, just daylife routine without comments, how they rebuild back what been taken from them (and I'm talking not only about material side of it).
Life will never return to the dead, people who've lost parents/children, people who've been maimed, etc. Many of the missiles and artillery shells used are unguided and they don't seem to care where they land. It's pure butchery by Putin.
Derek, 1) I don't know what's Putin TV, I watch only yt. 2) ANY propoganda (being it the state's, or YOUR'S) usually obvious and doesn't work on me. It bounces off me like a Hunter B prostitutes.Derek27 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:36 pmYou've obviously been watching Putin TV. His forces are indiscriminately bombing residential areas into submission, hospitals, children, women have been raped in front of their children, and there's zero attempt to limit any damage. They used the same tactics in Syria.napshnap wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:39 pmDespite russian forces tried to limit damage as much as possible...
...but life is slowly coming back to Mariupol. There are vids on yt, just daylife routine without comments, how they rebuild back what been taken from them (and I'm talking not only about material side of it).
Life will never return to the dead, people who've lost parents/children, people who've been maimed, etc. Many of the missiles and artillery shells used are unguided and they don't seem to care where they land. It's pure butchery by Putin.