If Sports Trading Ended and Daytrading Financial Markets

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alexmr2
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

If you make or (plan to make) your living from BF, and something stopped sports trading altogether, where would you go?

Would you retire, look for a normal job, or start a self-employed business?

Or would you day trade in financial markets? Which one i.e. crypto, forex, stocks?

I haven't came across much financial market day trading discussion on here, but it should be the same specialised skillset as trading order flow on BF? Wouldn't it in theory, be even easier because you can set your entry and exits and let them play out with much more time to think, whereas on BF it's easy to get overwhelmed in the moment?

Haven't some people got fed up of max PC and went elsewhere? Or even just considered doing financials when your sport is out of season?

Is it realistic to become a day trader in financial markets or is there something I'm missing?

Some reasons I can think of as to why people wouldn't make the switch:

The competition is greater i.e. paying lots of money for fast news (don't some platforms also sell your position to instituitions?)
The software isn't as good as BA
There are less opportunities per day
It is much slower and less exciting than sports (not sure how short a timeframe you can trade profitably)
Tax becomes complicated

I suppose this question is more for those that trade almost purely from the ladders rather than those who trade sports with fast pictures, bots, algorithms or from in-depth experience and knowledge
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jamesedwards
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

alexmr2 wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:38 pm
If you make or (plan to make) your living from BF, and something stopped sports trading altogether, where would you go?

Would you retire, look for a normal job, or start a self-employed business?

Or would you day trade in financial markets? Which one i.e. crypto, forex, stocks?

I haven't came across much financial market day trading discussion on here, but it should be the same specialised skillset as trading order flow on BF? Wouldn't it in theory, be even easier because you can set your entry and exits and let them play out with much more time to think, whereas on BF it's easy to get overwhelmed in the moment?

Haven't some people got fed up of max PC and went elsewhere? Or even just considered doing financials when your sport is out of season?

Is it realistic to become a day trader in financial markets or is there something I'm missing?

Some reasons I can think of as to why people wouldn't make the switch:

The competition is greater i.e. paying lots of money for fast news (don't some platforms also sell your position to instituitions?)
The software isn't as good as BA
There are less opportunities per day
It is much slower and less exciting than sports (not sure how short a timeframe you can trade profitably)
Tax becomes complicated

I suppose this question is more for those that trade almost purely from the ladders rather than those who trade sports with fast pictures, bots, algorithms or from in-depth experience and knowledge
Someone said quite recently that BA should build a piece of software for trading financial markets.

I would certainly give it a go if it was available.

A big consideration would be Capital Gains tax or even Income Tax if HMRC deemed you to be trading professionally. Still better than higher rate PC though! :lol:
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marksmeets302
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:37 pm

With all respect to the developers of betangel, you can't be serious about "the software isn't as good as BA". We shouldn't even compare them. One is used to move thousands of pounds per event, the others for millions or multiples thereof. Data frequency, data format, hardware they run on are vastly different.

Investing is wise, but daytrading the markets is like gambling for most people. I know of very few people that succeed and they all come from a background as a professional trader. Years behind the screen as high-frequency traders they have found a couple of tricks that work even with slow lines at home. Don't expect to just come in and replicate their success.
tumby
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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 pm

I spent over 20 years as a trader in the financial markets. I traded pretty much every market possible, started in FX Options, then EM FX Options, Swaps and swaptions, equity derivatives and commodities. After all that experience I can honestly say that earning a living from trading the financial markets is incredibly tough, brutal even. You have to learn to manage failure well because there will be lots of it. The hardest thing to come to terms with is that every day is not different, markets tend to be dominanted by certain dynamics for long periods of time. Knowing that is one thing, profiting from it is very different. You are literally competing with thousands of the smartest people on earth. Any mistake is brutally punished.

My experience of sports betting by comparison is something that is much much easier, thats not to say its easy, just that it is easier than financial markets. So if you struggle to make a living sports betting than moving to financial markets is very likely to finish with your wallet empty.

It is possible to take a £100 starting wallet in sports betting and turn that into a living within a year. That is simply inconceivable in the financial markets. If you produce a 20% return on your intial investment in a year then you would be performing very well but I can't see many people living off £20 a year. So unless you have a large pot to start with and are comfortable with the idea that you will probably lose it all then I suggest staying clear.
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ShaunWhite
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tumby wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:02 pm
I spent over 20 years as a trader in the financial markets. I traded pretty much every market possible, started in FX Options, then EM FX Options, Swaps and swaptions, equity derivatives and commodities. After all that experience I can honestly say that earning a living from trading the financial markets is incredibly tough, brutal even.
You're so right it's brutal. I PMed the original poster and mentioned the expected returns and how if he could make 10% year in year out over index he could choose his firm and his wages.....starting the conversation at 7 figures. So to make 100k after tax, ni, expenses ext you're looking at an abs min of 1.5m in the fund.

Just out of interest @tumby did you work anywhere I might know? I did nearly 25 yrs in the city (83-08) and worked for lots of firms, Goldmans, JPM, Nomura, Morgans etc. On the front office IT side going way back to the days of LiquidNet. And my bro in law works at BNP, currently shaving nano seconds off processes for them. You mentioned the calibre of the opposition...we'd have Nobel nominees in as consultants so good luck to Alex. :)
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Derek27
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Location: UK

alexmr2 wrote:
Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:38 pm
Some reasons I can think of as to why people wouldn't make the switch:

'''''
The software isn't as good as BA
'''''
Don't know anything about financials but I would have thought comparing BA to financial trading software would be like comparing a footballer to a cricketer, they're entirely different applications.

The main reason why I wouldn't want to get into financials is that I'd probably open a trade and then wait for a goal. :)
weemac
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:16 pm

For about 30 years I was at different times a broker, market maker and then fund management and hedge fund trader in equities, bonds and derivatives. Consistently profitable day trading is staggeringly difficult. In fact, without the advantages that come from being 'inside the machine', it's next to impossible.

The pinnacle of difficulty for me would be FX, and yet bizarrely that's where most of the Youtube trading videos seem to concentrate. Less than 1% of these videos are worth anything at all, imo.
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ODPaul82
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Location: Digswell Herts

I'd look to put my development skills to use and create an exchange via TOR that took some of the more stable coins as methods of payment.
I wouldn't suspend for stuff like VAR, complete buyer discretion.

Failing that, data consultancy.
Anbell
Posts: 2006
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

ODPaul82 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:23 am
I'd look to put my development skills to use and create an exchange via TOR that took some of the more stable coins as methods of payment.
I wouldn't suspend for stuff like VAR, complete buyer discretion.

Failing that, data consultancy.
I'm always interested in what you have to say - but I don't understand much of this! Feel free to expand?
MAGTRADEUK
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:55 pm

After being made redundant I did a spell of trading stocks, mainly through my SIPP, research into company fundementals and buy for divis, very hard but did manage to make a profit. That said it was not day trading, I believe that its near on impossible to day trade FX and make consistant profits. I mean do you really think that sitting in your house with a broadband connection you can outperfom, using sillly charts with lines on, you can outperform big banks? All the news is priced in, some know before the rest i.e Goldmans et al.... at least with sports trading its a bit more of a level playing field. IMHO
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ODPaul82
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 6:32 am
Location: Digswell Herts

Anbell wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:10 am
ODPaul82 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:23 am
I'd look to put my development skills to use and create an exchange via TOR that took some of the more stable coins as methods of payment.
I wouldn't suspend for stuff like VAR, complete buyer discretion.

Failing that, data consultancy.
I'm always interested in what you have to say - but I don't understand much of this! Feel free to expand?
So TOR is the onion router which basically allows you to connect to what people call the darkweb, it's basically a lot more secure but the legality of a lot what goes on there is questionable...

It would probably be more a pet-project for me but would be near enough a clone of the functionality of betfair. Due to the premise of sports trading ending by the OP, the whole idea of an exchange would be a grey-area therefore taking stable coins as payment/balance. Stable coins are pretty much virtual coins that are tied to the value of an asset such as gold so they don't have the massive swings associated with other virtual coins.

Back-end I'd probably write in rust as (a) it's fast and (b) it lends itself particularly well for creating APIs. DB would be postgres due to LISTEN/NOTIFY
Front-end probably mix of Angular and NodeJS
tumby
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:49 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:54 pm
tumby wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:02 pm
I spent over 20 years as a trader in the financial markets. I traded pretty much every market possible, started in FX Options, then EM FX Options, Swaps and swaptions, equity derivatives and commodities. After all that experience I can honestly say that earning a living from trading the financial markets is incredibly tough, brutal even.
You're so right it's brutal. I PMed the original poster and mentioned the expected returns and how if he could make 10% year in year out over index he could choose his firm and his wages.....starting the conversation at 7 figures. So to make 100k after tax, ni, expenses ext you're looking at an abs min of 1.5m in the fund.

Just out of interest @tumby did you work anywhere I might know? I did nearly 25 yrs in the city (83-08) and worked for lots of firms, Goldmans, JPM, Nomura, Morgans etc. On the front office IT side going way back to the days of LiquidNet. And my bro in law works at BNP, currently shaving nano seconds off processes for them. You mentioned the calibre of the opposition...we'd have Nobel nominees in as consultants so good luck to Alex. :)
I don't think our paths crossed, I started at BP Finance, then NatWest Markets followed by a long stint at Barclays Capital and then another long stint at RBS. I am currently pondering the same issues as raised in the first post. I doubt my systems will make any money after the UK government reforms are implemented. I am contemplating a return to financial trading but with considerable apprehension. It is so hard with the resources of a large bank to help you, when you are on your own with no support its so much tougher although I love not having compliance and market risk breathing down my neck! I am teaming up with an old colleague of mine which helps. If you are on your own I would say its almost impossible to earn a living.
sniffer66
Posts: 1666
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 am

I'd probably try go back to botting poker, though I'm not sure what the tables are like these days. I'm guessing the bot detection has come on leaps and bounds since I last ran bots about 15 years ago so it might not be worthwhile.

I knew a guy who paid a room full of Philipinos to "bot" for him, follwing a manual scripted playbook to get around it :)
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ODPaul82
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Location: Digswell Herts

sniffer66 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:02 am
I'd probably try go back to botting poker, though I'm not sure what the tables are like these days. I'm guessing the bot detection has come on leaps and bounds since I last ran bots about 15 years ago so it might not be worthwhile.

I knew a guy who paid a room full of Philipinos to "bot" for him, follwing a manual scripted playbook to get around it :)
It's much better, perma-ban for anyone detected doing it
Vast majority of sites bar any form of HUD now as well
sniffer66
Posts: 1666
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 am

ODPaul82 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:07 pm
sniffer66 wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:02 am
I'd probably try go back to botting poker, though I'm not sure what the tables are like these days. I'm guessing the bot detection has come on leaps and bounds since I last ran bots about 15 years ago so it might not be worthwhile.

I knew a guy who paid a room full of Philipinos to "bot" for him, follwing a manual scripted playbook to get around it :)
It's much better, perma-ban for anyone detected doing it
Vast majority of sites bar any form of HUD now as well
Yeah, I lost a few banks back in the day. Used to use rootkits, mirrored machines. you name it.

I'm surprised on the HUD's. Remember buying millions of hands from the biggest HUD to analyse - it's name slips my memory
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