Mindless menace of violence

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gazuty
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Location: Green land :)

I always listen this speech on days like this - https://www.americanrhetoric.com/mp3cli ... ubARXE.mp3

RFK was flawed (as we all are) but this speech really speaks to me.
Trader Pat
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As well as these nutjobs doing the shooting America's political system is at fault for these tragedies.

The US is a country where a majority of the population want tighter gun control laws but they are ignored by law makers or in the case of Mitch McConnell just one lawmaker because he refused to bring a bill to the Senate floor. Ridiculous that one man can have so much power and he wasn't even the president. Same thing is happening now with abortion rights; a majority of Americans want to keep Roe v Wade but a handful of supreme court judges could be about to turn the clock back 50 years. That's not democracy in action in either case.

Like I said on another thread, I genuinely don't understand how anyone can think America is the greatest nation on Earth. I've been there several times and for the most part loved it but every time I leave it's definitely a case of "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya"
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napshnap
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I'm pro armed civil society but american people demonstrated that It's useless to them anymore, so... Down with their fangs!
Archery1969
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What people who don’t live in the US fail to understand is the following:

- Their constitution states good citizens are allowed firearms by law. Very few other countries provide for that in law. In the UK it’s somewhat of a privilege to be allowed a firearm.
- Firearms in the US are handed down by previous generations. Dad to Son etc.
- The US is huge, most states allow you to take your firearm onto public land and hunt or plink or bring it camping.
- Lots of dangerous animals around when in remote locations. ie. Bears and wolves.
- Allot of people live in remote locations and the nearest Police help could by 1 hour away. Not great if you get a home invasion.
- There is no gun registry. The Police and Government don’t know who has what firearms or how many. How do you force them to register them and would a judge ever sign off on a police warrant to search every home looking for them ?
- Owners are not going to hand them over without a fight, literally.

Yes, you could try bring in more legislation but in the past, new presidents have reversed them. Clinton brought in assault rifle bans. But that changed after 4 years by Bush. High capacity magazines are banned in California but you just drive across to next state, buy them and bring them back.

Of course you can stop felons or mentally I’ll people from being allowed firearms but they can ask a son, brother or partner to buy one for them.

There are many ghost guns in the US, you order all the parts on-line and assemble yourself which means no standard FBI background check.

The horse has already bolted, with 360 million firearms in circulation with no registry then you will be fighting a losing war to get them off the streets.

I have a friend in Arizona with a bunker full of firearms and ammunition. Asked before what’s the point in having all that. His reply was “Because you never know who will ban what and when”. As a medical doctor you would think he a sensible, law abiding citizen who knows right from wrong. Technically he not doing anything wrong but you can just tell he not going to surrender them if the law were suddenly to change etc

As for the school shootings over the years, allot of them have been down to bullying, pupil goes home, gets his Dad’s guns or his own and then takes revenge. Unfortunately not allot you can do about that unless they already known to law enforcement or spent recorded time in a mental health facility.

It’s very tragic, of course but nothing will ever change unless the US is going to go to war with its own firearm owning public.

Remember the big shooting in New Zealand a few years back ? Government said assault rifles are now banned, hand them over. Everyone thought it was bold, good and the press loved it. Then it turns out that only 9% were handed over for destruction. Not all owners very law abiding then and where are the other 91% that were originally sold ?????
Trader Pat
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Archery1969 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 1:32 pm
What people who don’t live in the US fail to understand is the following:

- Their constitution states good citizens are allowed firearms by law. Very few other countries provide for that in law. In the UK it’s somewhat of a privilege to be allowed a firearm.
I couldn't be bothered reading any further than this mostly because for the most part I've tuned out of American news and talking points but if the US constitution was so perfect there wouldn't be 27 amendments to it.
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Euler
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Location: Bet Angel HQ

The original right for citizens to bear arms was in order to ensure that they have a functioning democracy that would be upheld whatever. Not only was that a long time ago, it wasn't there to ensure citizens could randomly slaughter small school children.
Archery1969
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Location: Newport

Euler wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
The original right for citizens to bear arms was in order to ensure that they have a functioning democracy that would be upheld whatever. Not only was that a long time ago, it wasn't there to ensure citizens could randomly slaughter small school children.
Agreed. But to remove that from the constitution would require all states to agree. And I can never see that happening, well maybe after a civil war that’s won by the law changers.
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napshnap
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Euler wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
The original right for citizens to bear arms was in order to ensure that they have a functioning democracy that would be upheld whatever. Not only was that a long time ago, it wasn't there to ensure citizens could randomly slaughter small school children.
The evil'll find its way, if not by these terrible bloodbaths then by power violation, repressions and bad inhumane political dessisions leading to famine, for example.
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Euler
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I always liked this take on things :lol: : -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in3Ppk9NG9U
greenmark
Posts: 4948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Euler wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
The original right for citizens to bear arms was in order to ensure that they have a functioning democracy that would be upheld whatever. Not only was that a long time ago, it wasn't there to ensure citizens could randomly slaughter small school children.
Halleljuah! Perfect description of the issue.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." This was 1791, pre US civil war. Thats 230 years ago. Does it have any relevence today?
In any case, the anger in the US against Senators (taking pay from NRA/gun industry and doing precisely sod all) is epitomised by this NBA coach.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574
sniffer66
Posts: 1666
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 am

greenmark wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 3:21 pm
Euler wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 1:54 pm
The original right for citizens to bear arms was in order to ensure that they have a functioning democracy that would be upheld whatever. Not only was that a long time ago, it wasn't there to ensure citizens could randomly slaughter small school children.
Halleljuah! Perfect description of the issue.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." This was 1791, pre US civil war. Thats 230 years ago. Does it have any relevence today?
In any case, the anger in the US against Senators (taking pay from NRA/gun industry and doing precisely sod all) is epitomised by this NBA coach.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574
Great speech, straight from the heart. Just hope they are listening.
Archery1969
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:25 am
Location: Newport

They wont listen in a million years.

The current Texas governer only recently changed their state law so that Texan's can legally carry concealed firearms with no permit needed. Before you use to have additional background checks done to get the permit.

Northern states are much stricter when it comes to gun laws while Southern states are not.

NYC is the most strict with a 21 day waiting period to get a handgun while additional checks are carried out.

Texas is an NFA class 3 state meaning you are allowed to purchase some serious firepower after paying a $500 fee and enhanced ATF background check.

Current NFA class 3 items allowed:

- Silencers, also known as suppressors or sound moderators.
- Short-barreled rifles (SBR): Rifles with a barrel length of less than 16” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Short-barreled shotguns (SBS): Shotguns with a barrel length of less than 18” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Machine guns: Firearms capable of shooting more than one shot with a “single function of the trigger” (e.g., a single trigger pull results in multiple shots fired). This definition includes all firearms with a burst-fire or full-auto mode and all bump stocks.
- Destructive devices (DD), which includes explosives, exploding ammunition, launchers for such ammunition, and firearms with a bore diameter larger than 0.500” (with certain exemptions, e.g., antique guns and shotguns legally exempted from that definition under the “sporting purpose” clause)
greenmark
Posts: 4948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Archery1969 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:58 pm
They wont listen in a million years.

The current Texas governer only recently changed their state law so that Texan's can legally carry concealed firearms with no permit needed. Before you use to have additional background checks done to get the permit.

Northern states are much stricter when it comes to gun laws while Southern states are not.

NYC is the most strict with a 21 day waiting period to get a handgun while additional checks are carried out.

Texas is an NFA class 3 state meaning you are allowed to purchase some serious firepower after paying a $500 fee and enhanced ATF background check.

Current NFA class 3 items allowed:

- Silencers, also known as suppressors or sound moderators.
- Short-barreled rifles (SBR): Rifles with a barrel length of less than 16” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Short-barreled shotguns (SBS): Shotguns with a barrel length of less than 18” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Machine guns: Firearms capable of shooting more than one shot with a “single function of the trigger” (e.g., a single trigger pull results in multiple shots fired). This definition includes all firearms with a burst-fire or full-auto mode and all bump stocks.
- Destructive devices (DD), which includes explosives, exploding ammunition, launchers for such ammunition, and firearms with a bore diameter larger than 0.500” (with certain exemptions, e.g., antique guns and shotguns legally exempted from that definition under the “sporting purpose” clause)
Every regulation is potentially a step forward. The Senate standing in the way of further regs is fair enough - IF they have a decent argument. But the opposers don't have a decent argument. They have the fillibuster and a brown envelope from the gun "lobby".
I am against gun ownership per se. Regulation makes sense to me, oppostion to regulation makes no sense.
An 18 year old wandering round with 2 assault weapons. How does that fit with the 2nd. "A well regulated militia". I think not.
Archery1969
Posts: 3193
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:25 am
Location: Newport

greenmark wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:11 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:58 pm
They wont listen in a million years.

The current Texas governer only recently changed their state law so that Texan's can legally carry concealed firearms with no permit needed. Before you use to have additional background checks done to get the permit.

Northern states are much stricter when it comes to gun laws while Southern states are not.

NYC is the most strict with a 21 day waiting period to get a handgun while additional checks are carried out.

Texas is an NFA class 3 state meaning you are allowed to purchase some serious firepower after paying a $500 fee and enhanced ATF background check.

Current NFA class 3 items allowed:

- Silencers, also known as suppressors or sound moderators.
- Short-barreled rifles (SBR): Rifles with a barrel length of less than 16” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Short-barreled shotguns (SBS): Shotguns with a barrel length of less than 18” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Machine guns: Firearms capable of shooting more than one shot with a “single function of the trigger” (e.g., a single trigger pull results in multiple shots fired). This definition includes all firearms with a burst-fire or full-auto mode and all bump stocks.
- Destructive devices (DD), which includes explosives, exploding ammunition, launchers for such ammunition, and firearms with a bore diameter larger than 0.500” (with certain exemptions, e.g., antique guns and shotguns legally exempted from that definition under the “sporting purpose” clause)
Every regulation is potentially a step forward. The Senate standing in the way of further regs is fair enough - IF they have a decent argument. But the opposers don't have a decent argument. They have the fillibuster and a brown envelope from the gun "lobby".
I am against gun ownership per se. Regulation makes sense to me, oppostion to regulation makes no sense.
An 18 year old wandering round with 2 assault weapons. How does that fit with the 2nd. "A well regulated militia". I think not.
Over the years, UK shooters have not helped the situation. Not saying you should or want too but on YouTube lots of US videos posted by American gun owners with from over here telling them to resist all forms of gun controls otherwise with each new law you will end up like what happened in the UK. First they came for our centrefire semi-auto rifles, then handguns, then try to impose further restrictions along the way. This narrative has fed into US gun owners and their NRA which is fuckin huge with bag fulls of money to fight legilsation at every turn.

Ultimately, Clinton tried and failed, Bush didn't bother, Obama tried and failed, Trump didnt bother, Biden is trying too but will fail.

Like I said, if you have 360 million guns in circulation and law enforcement and government dont know who has what or how many then all you can hope for is for an amnesty and people hand them over. We had no choice in the UK as Police knew what each private citizen owned and some of us where threatend with prison if we refused them entry for removal. You cant do that in the USA for reasons I stated unless your going to find a judge to sign off searching every home, garage, bunker, basement, attic and land etc. Like I said, never going to happen.

If the person in question had used a knife instead then would everyone be calling for ALL knives to be banned, I doubt it. And that can be done as it happened in China a few years ago where a person went on the rampage stabbing people at a train and tube station before being shot dead.

Last time something like this happened, all schools were supposed to have metal detectors installed plus armed guards. I presume because of funding cuts not all had them installed or have since been removed etc. One idea would be to get the NRA and owners via a tax to fund all security for schools, colleges and universities in the form of metal dectors and armed guards.

But remember, if someone is mentally ill or just hell bent on causing carnage then there is not allot you can do to stop them. They could just as easliy drive a truck the wrong way down a motorway or into crowds of people as happened in France.
greenmark
Posts: 4948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Archery1969 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 8:21 pm
greenmark wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:11 pm
Archery1969 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:58 pm
They wont listen in a million years.

The current Texas governer only recently changed their state law so that Texan's can legally carry concealed firearms with no permit needed. Before you use to have additional background checks done to get the permit.

Northern states are much stricter when it comes to gun laws while Southern states are not.

NYC is the most strict with a 21 day waiting period to get a handgun while additional checks are carried out.

Texas is an NFA class 3 state meaning you are allowed to purchase some serious firepower after paying a $500 fee and enhanced ATF background check.

Current NFA class 3 items allowed:

- Silencers, also known as suppressors or sound moderators.
- Short-barreled rifles (SBR): Rifles with a barrel length of less than 16” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Short-barreled shotguns (SBS): Shotguns with a barrel length of less than 18” or an overall length of less than 26”.
- Machine guns: Firearms capable of shooting more than one shot with a “single function of the trigger” (e.g., a single trigger pull results in multiple shots fired). This definition includes all firearms with a burst-fire or full-auto mode and all bump stocks.
- Destructive devices (DD), which includes explosives, exploding ammunition, launchers for such ammunition, and firearms with a bore diameter larger than 0.500” (with certain exemptions, e.g., antique guns and shotguns legally exempted from that definition under the “sporting purpose” clause)
Every regulation is potentially a step forward. The Senate standing in the way of further regs is fair enough - IF they have a decent argument. But the opposers don't have a decent argument. They have the fillibuster and a brown envelope from the gun "lobby".
I am against gun ownership per se. Regulation makes sense to me, oppostion to regulation makes no sense.
An 18 year old wandering round with 2 assault weapons. How does that fit with the 2nd. "A well regulated militia". I think not.
Over the years, UK shooters have not helped the situation. Not saying you should or want too but on YouTube lots of US videos posted by American gun owners with from over here telling them to resist all forms of gun controls otherwise with each new law you will end up like what happened in the UK. First they came for our centrefire semi-auto rifles, then handguns, then try to impose further restrictions along the way. This narrative has fed into US gun owners and their NRA which is fuckin huge with bag fulls of money to fight legilsation at every turn.

Ultimately, Clinton tried and failed, Bush didn't bother, Obama tried and failed, Trump didnt bother, Biden is trying too but will fail.

Like I said, if you have 360 million guns in circulation and law enforcement and government dont know who has what or how many then all you can hope for is for an amnesty and people hand them over. We had no choice in the UK as Police knew what each private citizen owned and some of us where threatend with prison if we refused them entry for removal. You cant do that in the USA for reasons I stated unless your going to find a judge to sign off searching every home, garage, bunker, basement, attic and land etc. Like I said, never going to happen.

If the person in question had used a knife instead then would everyone be calling for ALL knives to be banned, I doubt it. And that can be done as it happened in China a few years ago where a person went on the rampage stabbing people at a train and tube station before being shot dead.

Last time something like this happened, all schools were supposed to have metal detectors installed plus armed guards. I presume because of funding cuts not all had them installed or have since been removed etc. One idea would be to get the NRA and owners via a tax to fund all security for schools, colleges and universities in the form of metal dectors and armed guards.

But remember, if someone is mentally ill or just hell bent on causing carnage then there is not allot you can do to stop them. They could just as easliy drive a truck the wrong way down a motorway or into crowds of people as happened in France.
Just because a situation is a bag of rats doesn'nt mean nothing can be done. I like your idea about a tax on the NRA and gun makers to fund greater protection for schools. But it's fiddling, isn't it? As you say the prolfieration of weapons in the US is pretty staggering. And does not fit with the 2nd Amendment in any way.
I'ts a horrible problem for one of the worlds most developed societies. How do you squeeze this genie back into the bottle.
Regulation is the best that can be done. Right-thiinking gun owners would surely go for that. Just stop the criminals and nutters accessing lethal weapons with such ease. The laws being blocked by the NRA funded Senators only ask for an increase from 3 to 10 days for screeing before handing over a weapon. And another that would require screening to be required for gun shows and private sales of weapons. Hardly draconian, no?
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