Manual Trading Fatigue

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alexmr2
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

If you trade for too long, does it mentally drain you enough to affect your performance?

Personally I have noticed that my results are much better if I spend 2-3 hours a day trading. Say 70-90% of the races in that 2-5pm time period (depending on if I like the characteristics or not), rather than sitting at the desk for hours on end trying to pull something out of every market. Sometimes I'm happy to do an extra hour or two and other days I feel drained and the markets look too poor to continue.

My thoughts are that when you are an intermediate trader who is profitable by the end of the month, then you are at the conscious competence stage and trading is still a stressful activity, it doesn't take much loss of focus to end up in a bad situation.

If you are a seasoned trader and at the unconscious competence stage, then I imagine that you would be able to trade the full afternoon and evening with much less mental fatigue and therefore be able to sustain your performance throughout the day.

An analogy could be a learner driver having to drive through a busy city and the stress that their brain would be under compared to someone who has been driving for 10 years.

Interesting to see if you agree or not
Tetras
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 pm

When I started just an hour was more than enough to start making mistakes.

Now, I can trade for 2-5 hours a day (usually 3). But, 4 days in a row is my maximum, then I need a few days off before I can trade again. If I trade for a week, non-stop, then I'll lose the profit for an entire month.
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alexmr2
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Tetras wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:30 am
When I started just an hour was more than enough to start making mistakes.

Now, I can trade for 2-5 hours a day (usually 3). But, 4 days in a row is my maximum, then I need a few days off before I can trade again. If I trade for a week, non-stop, then I'll lose the profit for an entire month.
That's interesting that you have a few days off trading at a time, I always feel uneasy about having days off in case it hinders my progress (I've only been trading for around 2.5 years).

In the past I actually noticed that my losing days were after around 3-5 winning days and that after a break my performance is sometimes better, so maybe there's something to it.

It could just be a case of dealing with the overconfidence that builds up? Other than that I can't think of a reason why 24 hours to recharge wouldn't be enough to have a fresh start... but I definitely see why some days it's better to walk away after an hour or two depending on how the day is trading
Emmson
Posts: 3363
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:47 pm

Yes in answer to the question manual trading often leaves me wasted but as I at this time have no magic to work on automation I just press on regardless. If I have cricket/NBA to trade then I am mentally stimulated throughout but horses and dogs is not stimulating which makes it harder and more tiring.
Tetras
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 pm

alexmr2 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 2:27 am
Tetras wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:30 am
When I started just an hour was more than enough to start making mistakes.

Now, I can trade for 2-5 hours a day (usually 3). But, 4 days in a row is my maximum, then I need a few days off before I can trade again. If I trade for a week, non-stop, then I'll lose the profit for an entire month.
That's interesting that you have a few days off trading at a time, I always feel uneasy about having days off in case it hinders my progress (I've only been trading for around 2.5 years).

In the past I actually noticed that my losing days were after around 3-5 winning days and that after a break my performance is sometimes better, so maybe there's something to it.

It could just be a case of dealing with the overconfidence that builds up? Other than that I can't think of a reason why 24 hours to recharge wouldn't be enough to have a fresh start... but I definitely see why some days it's better to walk away after an hour or two depending on how the day is trading
For me, it's a combination of fatigue and restlessness, overconfidence rarely appears in my journal.

The restlessness comes in, because I feel like my life is getting out of control, I need to maintain my relationships, keep up with paperwork, chores, self-care, etc. At that point, I start trading destructively, because if I have nothing and feel bad about myself, I don't care if I make 1% or lose all my money.

The fatigue is bad because I still have a lot of hmm, mental rules and awareness of the markets, which I will try to trade without. I revert to bad habits too, like not cutting losses.

I try to write down any general guidance I've kept in mind in winning days, so that the break doesn't impede my progress. But, I find that isn't actually the issue, the issue is that if for example, I go from a festival day, to a terrible Tuesday, then it takes me 5-6 races to realise and trade it differently.

It's still preferable to losing a month's profits, because at least I'll cut the losses :lol:
jamesg46
Posts: 3769
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

alexmr2 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 12:58 am
If you trade for too long, does it mentally drain you enough to affect your performance?

Personally I have noticed that my results are much better if I spend 2-3 hours a day trading. Say 70-90% of the races in that 2-5pm time period (depending on if I like the characteristics or not), rather than sitting at the desk for hours on end trying to pull something out of every market. Sometimes I'm happy to do an extra hour or two and other days I feel drained and the markets look too poor to continue.

My thoughts are that when you are an intermediate trader who is profitable by the end of the month, then you are at the conscious competence stage and trading is still a stressful activity, it doesn't take much loss of focus to end up in a bad situation.

If you are a seasoned trader and at the unconscious competence stage, then I imagine that you would be able to trade the full afternoon and evening with much less mental fatigue and therefore be able to sustain your performance throughout the day.

An analogy could be a learner driver having to drive through a busy city and the stress that their brain would be under compared to someone who has been driving for 10 years.

Interesting to see if you agree or not
My performance makes for the perfect bell curve. At the start of the day I have to be careful, I've often been keen to post & sometimes come the end of the day I'm a front runner with nothing left to give. Yesterday I took a hit straight from the get go, come mid session I was comfortable & then near the end i started to give back.

I have to be very careful, I'm very self destructive & my temper is always willing to take the lead. Lists & alerts have helped me alot, I now structure the card around me instead of me being a slave to the screen.
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Morbius
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:38 pm

alexmr2 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 12:58 am
If you trade for too long, does it mentally drain you enough to affect your performance?

Personally I have noticed that my results are much better if I spend 2-3 hours a day trading. Say 70-90% of the races in that 2-5pm time period (depending on if I like the characteristics or not), rather than sitting at the desk for hours on end trying to pull something out of every market. Sometimes I'm happy to do an extra hour or two and other days I feel drained and the markets look too poor to continue.

My thoughts are that when you are an intermediate trader who is profitable by the end of the month, then you are at the conscious competence stage and trading is still a stressful activity, it doesn't take much loss of focus to end up in a bad situation.

If you are a seasoned trader and at the unconscious competence stage, then I imagine that you would be able to trade the full afternoon and evening with much less mental fatigue and therefore be able to sustain your performance throughout the day.

An analogy could be a learner driver having to drive through a busy city and the stress that their brain would be under compared to someone who has been driving for 10 years.

Interesting to see if you agree or not

Manual trading is very mentally taxing and is why there is an age limit on traders in the city who gain employment at investment banks for example. In fact the burn out is all too real and will happen. However "manual" trading doesn't have to be "manual" if you get my drift.

I don't have much of an idea about automation and building bots for example but there are ways to avoid your problem and ring fence it. That is to "automate" your system by using an easily replicable algorithmic process. The word algorithm doesn't automatically mean its connected to programming or computers. Any structured list of procedures is an algorithm and a simple example is in cooking with recipes.

Your driving analogy was a good one but imagine driving your car on the motorway with cruise control on. You are still in the drivers seat and the car isnt driving itself but its less taxing... Not sure about that analogy but you get my drift.

So my advice would be to try and design a rules based algorithmic process for trading horseracing pre off that is shaped around the way you trade now. I think you will be amazed how less stressful this is and how much longer you can trade.
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alexmr2
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Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

Morbius wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:46 am
That is to "automate" your system by using an easily replicable algorithmic process. The word algorithm doesn't automatically mean its connected to programming or computers. Any structured list of procedures is an algorithm and a simple example is in cooking with recipes.

So my advice would be to try and design a rules based algorithmic process for trading horseracing pre off that is shaped around the way you trade now. I think you will be amazed how less stressful this is and how much longer you can trade.
That's a good way to think about it thanks. Sometimes I feel like the trade exits are so clear-cut that it takes the stress away because the setup, probability and RR are all good giving the trade breathing room. Other times when I take a step back I wonder why I entered and ended up in a stupid position, which leads to feeling stress.

I have found that my perceptual judgement is getting better at identifying which trades to avoid and which ones to take, but it's taken a lot of screentime to develop it to a comfortable stage because trading order flow is so precise
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Morbius
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:38 pm

alexmr2 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 3:16 pm
Morbius wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:46 am
That is to "automate" your system by using an easily replicable algorithmic process. The word algorithm doesn't automatically mean its connected to programming or computers. Any structured list of procedures is an algorithm and a simple example is in cooking with recipes.

So my advice would be to try and design a rules based algorithmic process for trading horseracing pre off that is shaped around the way you trade now. I think you will be amazed how less stressful this is and how much longer you can trade.
That's a good way to think about it thanks. Sometimes I feel like the trade exits are so clear-cut that it takes the stress away because the setup, probability and RR are all good giving the trade breathing room. Other times when I take a step back I wonder why I entered and ended up in a stupid position, which leads to feeling stress.

I have found that my perceptual judgement is getting better at identifying which trades to avoid and which ones to take, but it's taken a lot of screentime to develop it to a comfortable stage because trading order flow is so precise

It's a difficult one because any fixed algorithm lacks the creative fluidity of human thinking. However it is the very "humanness" that is the stumbling block most of the time. When it comes to efficiency then humans simply cannot match advanced bots but that doesnt mean that the bot is always superior...far from it.

In the overwhelming number of cases with trading then the inefficiencies in the process are nearly always caused by human intervention depending on the strategy of course. This week for example I have placed numerous trades on football where what we are discussing wouldn't apply because different skill sets were involved.

In a highly volatile fast moving market like horseracing pre off then it's a different market that requires more focus. This is where stress builds but it is important to realise where those feelings originate from Alex. They are a derivative of being or feeling lost in a position and not knowing what to do. That stress and other negative feelings is what leads to burnout and trading fatigue.

An algorithmic rules based process would ring fence this problem. Develop a system however long it takes for what to do in any scenario you encounter even if you are trading this manually.

It will pull the teeth on unknown volatility while at the same time keeping you in the drivers seat to handle unplanned eventualities. Horseracing is a market that more closely resembles day trading and will throw different problems at you including extreme volatility. Having a plan will help you tremendously
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