Betfair Account Restrictions & closed accounts - Getting them removed and accounts reopened
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Punters are reporting increasing difficulties with affordability checks, intrusive and stringent in some cases, despite the fact the results of a Gambling Commission consultation on the subject have not yet been made public.
The imposition of checks by various operators has already resulted in closed accounts and widespread frustration that is likely to undermine interest in racing and the financial support it receives from bookmakers.
The Horseracing Bettors Forum said on Thursday it had been contacted by three punters recently because of checks requested by the Tote, where a low-level trigger of £750 in total deposits appears to have been introduced.
The Racing Post has also heard from a punter who reports checks being made by a range of companies, while one betting industry insider has described the potentially calamitous effect on the business for which he works, and by extension for racing.
The news comes after the end of the betting regulator’s affordability review last month. Among the possibilities raised in the consultation was the prospect of the introduction of a threshold on net gambling loss of as little as £100, which would lead to customers having to provide evidence they could afford to lose more.
The consultation received around 13,000 submissions amid deep concern about the intrusion on privacy and the likely impact on sports like racing which derive significant income from betting companies. An owners group recently named the issue as “the number one thing racing has to deal with effectively”.
David Carr
“We understand that the Tote have set a limit to say, once you get to £750 total deposits on your account, you’re going to undergo some sort of affordability check,” said Colin Hord, HBF chairman. It is believed a figure around £300 is applied for those under the age of 25.
The Racing Post has seen an emailed request from the Tote to one of those customers, seeking details of gross annual income, net monthly income and normal monthly outgoings. It also asks whether the customer would consider deposit limits “to manage your spend”.
The email states: “We apply a £750 deposit limit to all customer accounts before needing to ask for additional verification … We are determined to make gambling not only fun but also affordable for all our customers”.
“We haven’t heard from anyone who’s filled that in,” Hord continued. “One person has refused and said they would rather bet on the black market than provide that information. The other person wrote, ‘Private, private, not going to tell you’, and we haven’t heard what happened as a result. The other guy has only just received it and he’s considering how to approach it.”
Susannah Gill, the Tote’s communications director, responded: “Our priority is to provide a safe and enjoyable betting experience for our customers. As part of this, we collect some personal information from individuals to help ensure they are betting safely and affordably throughout their time as customers of the Tote.
“This may make some people uncomfortable but is part of an established regulatory environment for the gambling sector, where it is important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities.”
Susannah Gill: “Important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities”
Susannah Gill: “Important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities”
The owners of Ladbrokes Coral acknowledged that checks are in place, but would be triggered only where risk was identified and not applied to all customers.
A spokesman for Entain said: “As part of our Advanced Responsibility and Care ARC programme, and as announced in November, we have implemented additional checks on customers who may be at risk of potential harm. These checks operate on a personalised risk-based approach rather than blanket restrictions which would be detrimental to the wider betting and gaming ecosystem, including the horseracing industry.”
One punter approached by the Racing Post, who asked to remain anonymous, said he holds accounts with a dozen firms, half of which have sought some kind of affordability check in the past six months, varying wildly in vigour.
“Some pay it lip service – ‘We just need to check you’re happy with the amount you’re spending’ – and you just say, yes, and that’s the end of it.
“At the other end of the scale, with one firm it was almost like a tax investigation. I had one of their guys ringing me for half an hour and he literally grilled me, it was like MI5. ‘We checked, in one specific hour in the past month, you placed 15 bets. Why did you do that? How do you manage to find the time for this, with your work?’.
“It was a strange scenario. I was caught a bit off guard. Thinking about it afterwards, I should have said, ‘Get lost, I’m not having this conversation. If you want to shut my account, just shut it. But I’m doing a perfectly legal activity, so why are you asking me all these questions?’.
“But at the time I thought if I went along with it, I’d get rid of him quicker and be able to carry on doing what I was doing. But then they said, we’re setting a monthly deposit limit.”
‘Where’s the future of their business?’
The punter, a fan of racing, expressed concern about the impact such checks will have on the sport’s share of bookmaker profits. “I do know people who have just said, ‘I’m not going through this rigmarole’. And it is a time-consuming rigmarole. It’s not just the privacy issue. It can take weeks doing this stuff, going back and forth.
“From the bookmaker’s side, if they’re having to shut down losing accounts and restrict everyone to losing £100 a month, where’s the future of their business? At the moment, you get shut down if you win because they don’t want your business and you’re shut down if you lose because the Gambling Commission says the bookies are not entitled to this business.”
That chimed with the thoughts of a betting industry insider, who also asked to remain anonymous. He said the firm that employs him has lost three-quarters of its biggest 100 racing punters since last year’s Cheltenham Festival as a direct consequence of checks aimed at establishing what they can afford to lose, either because they chose to close their accounts or because they were closed for non-response.
The insider added that punters in 2021 are an oppressed minority. “Nobody understands you, everybody thinks you’re curable and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with you and you should be controlled. A punter in 2021 is starting to feel like a lesser member of society.”
He said that Gambling Commission action behind the scenes, including criticism of operators during formal inspections, had helped bring affordability checks into force “even without the whole affordability thing having come anywhere near any kind of statute”.
The commission said it would not speak on the subject until it responds to its consultation.
Hord set out the HBF’s position: “The vast majority who do not bet very large amounts of money and have a proven record of betting on horse racing responsibly should not have to undergo intrusive checks.”
Punters are reporting increasing difficulties with affordability checks, intrusive and stringent in some cases, despite the fact the results of a Gambling Commission consultation on the subject have not yet been made public.
The imposition of checks by various operators has already resulted in closed accounts and widespread frustration that is likely to undermine interest in racing and the financial support it receives from bookmakers.
The Horseracing Bettors Forum said on Thursday it had been contacted by three punters recently because of checks requested by the Tote, where a low-level trigger of £750 in total deposits appears to have been introduced.
The Racing Post has also heard from a punter who reports checks being made by a range of companies, while one betting industry insider has described the potentially calamitous effect on the business for which he works, and by extension for racing.
The news comes after the end of the betting regulator’s affordability review last month. Among the possibilities raised in the consultation was the prospect of the introduction of a threshold on net gambling loss of as little as £100, which would lead to customers having to provide evidence they could afford to lose more.
The consultation received around 13,000 submissions amid deep concern about the intrusion on privacy and the likely impact on sports like racing which derive significant income from betting companies. An owners group recently named the issue as “the number one thing racing has to deal with effectively”.
David Carr
“We understand that the Tote have set a limit to say, once you get to £750 total deposits on your account, you’re going to undergo some sort of affordability check,” said Colin Hord, HBF chairman. It is believed a figure around £300 is applied for those under the age of 25.
The Racing Post has seen an emailed request from the Tote to one of those customers, seeking details of gross annual income, net monthly income and normal monthly outgoings. It also asks whether the customer would consider deposit limits “to manage your spend”.
The email states: “We apply a £750 deposit limit to all customer accounts before needing to ask for additional verification … We are determined to make gambling not only fun but also affordable for all our customers”.
“We haven’t heard from anyone who’s filled that in,” Hord continued. “One person has refused and said they would rather bet on the black market than provide that information. The other person wrote, ‘Private, private, not going to tell you’, and we haven’t heard what happened as a result. The other guy has only just received it and he’s considering how to approach it.”
Susannah Gill, the Tote’s communications director, responded: “Our priority is to provide a safe and enjoyable betting experience for our customers. As part of this, we collect some personal information from individuals to help ensure they are betting safely and affordably throughout their time as customers of the Tote.
“This may make some people uncomfortable but is part of an established regulatory environment for the gambling sector, where it is important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities.”
Susannah Gill: “Important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities”
Susannah Gill: “Important we know our customers, to support both our legal and social responsibilities”
The owners of Ladbrokes Coral acknowledged that checks are in place, but would be triggered only where risk was identified and not applied to all customers.
A spokesman for Entain said: “As part of our Advanced Responsibility and Care ARC programme, and as announced in November, we have implemented additional checks on customers who may be at risk of potential harm. These checks operate on a personalised risk-based approach rather than blanket restrictions which would be detrimental to the wider betting and gaming ecosystem, including the horseracing industry.”
One punter approached by the Racing Post, who asked to remain anonymous, said he holds accounts with a dozen firms, half of which have sought some kind of affordability check in the past six months, varying wildly in vigour.
“Some pay it lip service – ‘We just need to check you’re happy with the amount you’re spending’ – and you just say, yes, and that’s the end of it.
“At the other end of the scale, with one firm it was almost like a tax investigation. I had one of their guys ringing me for half an hour and he literally grilled me, it was like MI5. ‘We checked, in one specific hour in the past month, you placed 15 bets. Why did you do that? How do you manage to find the time for this, with your work?’.
“It was a strange scenario. I was caught a bit off guard. Thinking about it afterwards, I should have said, ‘Get lost, I’m not having this conversation. If you want to shut my account, just shut it. But I’m doing a perfectly legal activity, so why are you asking me all these questions?’.
“But at the time I thought if I went along with it, I’d get rid of him quicker and be able to carry on doing what I was doing. But then they said, we’re setting a monthly deposit limit.”
‘Where’s the future of their business?’
The punter, a fan of racing, expressed concern about the impact such checks will have on the sport’s share of bookmaker profits. “I do know people who have just said, ‘I’m not going through this rigmarole’. And it is a time-consuming rigmarole. It’s not just the privacy issue. It can take weeks doing this stuff, going back and forth.
“From the bookmaker’s side, if they’re having to shut down losing accounts and restrict everyone to losing £100 a month, where’s the future of their business? At the moment, you get shut down if you win because they don’t want your business and you’re shut down if you lose because the Gambling Commission says the bookies are not entitled to this business.”
That chimed with the thoughts of a betting industry insider, who also asked to remain anonymous. He said the firm that employs him has lost three-quarters of its biggest 100 racing punters since last year’s Cheltenham Festival as a direct consequence of checks aimed at establishing what they can afford to lose, either because they chose to close their accounts or because they were closed for non-response.
The insider added that punters in 2021 are an oppressed minority. “Nobody understands you, everybody thinks you’re curable and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with you and you should be controlled. A punter in 2021 is starting to feel like a lesser member of society.”
He said that Gambling Commission action behind the scenes, including criticism of operators during formal inspections, had helped bring affordability checks into force “even without the whole affordability thing having come anywhere near any kind of statute”.
The commission said it would not speak on the subject until it responds to its consultation.
Hord set out the HBF’s position: “The vast majority who do not bet very large amounts of money and have a proven record of betting on horse racing responsibly should not have to undergo intrusive checks.”
Meanwhile, every fool can download Robinhood app and lose his last trousers in financial markets. And he should lose it to the right people.Euler wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:35 pmSimilar article
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The insider added that punters in 2021 are an oppressed minority. “Nobody understands you, everybody thinks you’re curable and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with you and you should be controlled. A punter in 2021 is starting to feel like a lesser member of society.”
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- wearthefoxhat
- Posts: 3205
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am
I haven't yet been asked, it doesn't matter, I won't be playing ball.
I've nothing to hide, but I wouldn't bother jumping through the hoops Betfair would expect me to. I'd just cash out and go away until things had settled down, if they ever do. They won't miss me, but I'd feel better overall.
Betfair, despite their best efforts, are still disorganised since they carved out some of their depts to Romania. All it needs is some hacker to infiltrate the source of funds.exe file, (yep probably called that) and then everyones ID and personal info is on offer to the highest bidder.
Having worked in UK casino's, I know the gaming board/commission exist for good reason, but. give them too much "power" or unclear direction, it will end badly.
It's important to remember;
Protecting the vulnerable, okay, but as already pointed out, the crypto space has seen many get smashed and the operaters just change the rules mid-stream. (robinhood). That's not covered, although definitely a gambling activity.
They don't cover spread betting either...
The betting shops re-open on May 17th, I predict that a chunk of those will disappear within a year, it was going that way before the covid hit.
Casinos are/were closing too. (open May 17). I only play poker in their card-rooms, the table games are not as popular, although the slot machines are. Wouldn't be surprised if the GC act to restrict the time customers play on those too.
I've nothing to hide, but I wouldn't bother jumping through the hoops Betfair would expect me to. I'd just cash out and go away until things had settled down, if they ever do. They won't miss me, but I'd feel better overall.
Betfair, despite their best efforts, are still disorganised since they carved out some of their depts to Romania. All it needs is some hacker to infiltrate the source of funds.exe file, (yep probably called that) and then everyones ID and personal info is on offer to the highest bidder.
Having worked in UK casino's, I know the gaming board/commission exist for good reason, but. give them too much "power" or unclear direction, it will end badly.
It's important to remember;
Protecting the vulnerable, okay, but as already pointed out, the crypto space has seen many get smashed and the operaters just change the rules mid-stream. (robinhood). That's not covered, although definitely a gambling activity.
They don't cover spread betting either...
The betting shops re-open on May 17th, I predict that a chunk of those will disappear within a year, it was going that way before the covid hit.
Casinos are/were closing too. (open May 17). I only play poker in their card-rooms, the table games are not as popular, although the slot machines are. Wouldn't be surprised if the GC act to restrict the time customers play on those too.
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It's so true.The insider added that punters in 2021 are an oppressed minority. “Nobody understands you, everybody thinks you’re curable and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with you and you should be controlled. A punter in 2021 is starting to feel like a lesser member of society.”
My wife is always reminding me it's the industry I am in that is the problem, not what I do.
I'm always telling her that if I had made this much money in financials or poker I'd be seen as some sort of a god (sic), but instead people immediately think you are doing something dodgy or have a major gambling problem. Sheesh...
- wearthefoxhat
- Posts: 3205
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am
You are a god...I see you as an Apollo, just be careful of those ethylene gases....Euler wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:10 pmIt's so true.The insider added that punters in 2021 are an oppressed minority. “Nobody understands you, everybody thinks you’re curable and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with you and you should be controlled. A punter in 2021 is starting to feel like a lesser member of society.”
My wife is always reminding me it's the industry I am in that is the problem, not what I do.
I'm always telling her that if I had made this much money in financials or poker I'd be seen as some sort of a god (sic), but instead people immediately think you are doing something dodgy or have a major gambling problem. Sheesh...
The Gov/GC are forgetting one important detail...
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- jamesedwards
- Posts: 2234
- Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm
Betfair trading is my full time job. I've reached a point now where I have stopped withdrawing and depositing to Betfair completely, forcing me to keep an ever growing balance just to make sure I don't trigger any affordability checks in the future. Nothing to hide of course, but who wants their account suspended for days on end while you have arguments back and forth with some faceless stranger about where and how you spend your money? I could be investing that balance elsewhere, not to mention the risk of Flutter going under.
It's a joke.
It's a joke.
My guess is with this that rather than seeing something insidious behind it all that this is connected to several problems that BF may be experiencing. Namely to satisfy legal regulatory frameworks, to combat people trying to claim money back by claiming/proving that they have a gambling problem and increased levels of fraudulent activity on the site... That's my take on it
I doubt claiming money back would be an issue - compulsive gamblers have tried that one before. I remember one loser who got around his exclusion trying to claim back a quarter of a million, the judge ruled that he would have lost it anyway! Pretty stupid reasoning but I guess that's the common perception of the courts.Morbius wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:32 amMy guess is with this that rather than seeing something insidious behind it all that this is connected to several problems that BF may be experiencing. Namely to satisfy legal regulatory frameworks, to combat people trying to claim money back by claiming/proving that they have a gambling problem and increased levels of fraudulent activity on the site... That's my take on it
Interesting to note that Flutter's 6 month share price (-5%) has performed poorly when compared to Entain's (+45%). I'm wondering if any of this reflects the mess Flutter has got itself into with the affordability checks.
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- jamesedwards
- Posts: 2234
- Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm
I would guess more likely a reflection of growth and future plans for trading outside the UK. It would seem the uk is likely to be very stagnant for the next few years so focus will be on performance and share in other markets to drive future profits.
Derek27 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:48 pmI doubt claiming money back would be an issue - compulsive gamblers have tried that one before. I remember one loser who got around his exclusion trying to claim back a quarter of a million, the judge ruled that he would have lost it anyway! Pretty stupid reasoning but I guess that's the common perception of the courts.Morbius wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:32 amMy guess is with this that rather than seeing something insidious behind it all that this is connected to several problems that BF may be experiencing. Namely to satisfy legal regulatory frameworks, to combat people trying to claim money back by claiming/proving that they have a gambling problem and increased levels of fraudulent activity on the site... That's my take on it
I'm just speculating a bit here Derek because I don't know the reason. I've known numerous cases where people got refunded but it was more to do with the regulatory framework and fraudulent activity really and I just chucked a third reason in. Maybe its several reasons combined.
Given how stupidly over regulated many industries have become then I can imagine this being a real headache for BF. I worked as a financial advisor in 1998 to 99 before I went into poker which meant studying my FPC 1-3. I remember how thousands of fixed and independent FAs were driven from the industry because of intense regulation brought in by the FSA in 1986. I know it's to protect the public but as is often the case the regulation goes too far.
Let's keep our fingers crossed in a hope that genius bf managers won't decide that the exchange is bad for business.