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Kai
Posts: 6100
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:15 pm
Maybe there should be an offshoots thread that becomes as ubiquitous as the Rants or Today's racing? Any side comments can be made in there, or contentious comments moved to there. That way you don't get into censorship but threads hopefully stay more on topic.
Sounds like a lot of manual work, nobody would want that cleanup and babysitting job, least of all active traders. When Peter says he wants the forum to self-moderate he probably doesn't mean to give everyone admin powers, what could go wrong with that :)

Hmm, a few things come to mind while we're on this subject again...

A flat forum model where a topic has a single thread conversation has always had issues with going off-topic since the dawn of time, so it's not a new problem but the main benefit is that it looks nice and clean.

While multi threaded forums like Reddit etc where a single topic can branch out in an infinite amount of threads and directions and where users can open or close those branches at will has a lot of versatility, but honestly looks fugly and can get pretty cumbersome.

What could potentially be interesting is something in between, for every thread to somehow be split into 2 (sub)threads, ontopic discussion and offtopic discussion, not sure how possible that would be but it would clean up the threads, particularly very large ones that are full of offtopic stuff and of users quoting massive blocks of text just to post a one liner or emoji etc. Or if every thread simply had an offtopic subthread for users that want to have a side discussion of sorts that is somewhat related to the topic, that would be equally useful.

I have no issue filtering the serious from non-serious forum posts although granted I can go from dead serious to full troll and back etc, but I imagine many people find it hard to filter stuff out, and some probably can't tell the difference at all which is far from ideal.

An upvote thingy of sorts would clearly be helpful, we wouldn't have to quote text and reply with "+1" anymore which needlessly clogs up threads as well, and newbies could see much easier how many people agree or disagree with certain posts or advice or whatever. Karmawhoring could be a slight issue here, which is when people post things just for the sake of collecting likes/upvotes/karma, but could be a small tradeoff if this will entice people to post more helpful and constructive stuff.

A downvote feature would obviously be bad for numerous reasons, those with contrarian and unpopular opinions would be reluctant to share them since they can be downvoted into oblivion and lose credibility etc which is pointless since as a trader you need to think as a contrarian, and people would just misuse the feature anyway and downvote each other based on various other reasons and not based on what a post says and so on.
Trader Pat
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Kai wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:42 pm
When Peter says he wants the forum to self-moderate he probably doesn't mean to give everyone admin powers, what could go wrong with that :)

Can't think of anything...
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Kai
Posts: 6100
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

That's a great example, thanks Pat :D

So Pat's post would then go in the offtopic section of the thread while the main thread discussion could proceed as planned and everyone is (hopefully) happy :)

There should be enough programmers around to make it work :ugeek:
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ShaunWhite
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Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:06 pm
Well...

It seems a lot of assumptions have been made, and wrong ones at that.

There's a gulf of difference between declaring income accurately to HMRC (something I do in full and at the higher rate too, since 2003, for those interested!), and using a BACS credit from one's business account to one's personal account for insurance and credit checks. This is the element that works for me when not having a regular PAYE income, which was, I believe the OP's query.

To clarify, at no point have I suggested or condoned tax evasion.

CS
You haven't condoned tax evasion but you have condoned committing fraud including a full 'how to'. I assumed you held yourself to a higher moral standard than that.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/fraud-act-2006

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:
  • made a false representation dishonestly knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
    with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
Fraud by failing to disclose information (Section 3)
The defendant:
  • failed to disclose information to another person when he was under a legal duty to disclose that information dishonestly intending, by that failure, to make a gain or cause a loss.
How do you plead CS?
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alexmr2
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:40 am
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:06 pm
Well...

It seems a lot of assumptions have been made, and wrong ones at that.

There's a gulf of difference between declaring income accurately to HMRC (something I do in full and at the higher rate too, since 2003, for those interested!), and using a BACS credit from one's business account to one's personal account for insurance and credit checks. This is the element that works for me when not having a regular PAYE income, which was, I believe the OP's query.

To clarify, at no point have I suggested or condoned tax evasion.

CS
You've not condoned tax evasion but you have condoned committing fraud, unless you'd happily tell all these institutions the truth. I assumed you held yourself to a higher moral standard than that. Haven't you seen the part in your book that says 'Thou shalt not be an untrustworthy liar in order to obtain financial services' ?
I don't see a problem with withdrawing "gambling winnings" through his business Paypal and then to his bank as long as he records and declares his official business activities he should be fine. It's a good idea so banks and financial checks don't misunderstand the situation. There might be questions if they audit why his business appears to be making more money than is being declared, but he can prove that he just got lucky under the speculative gambling bracket.

Morals don't come into tax any more IMO. Tax was originally introduced to balance the wealth between the rich and poor, until the rich reformed it to have the (working and middle class) poor pay for the poor, whilst the rich use their solicitors and accountants to use every loophole they can to avoid it.

The biggest tax fraud doesn't come from benefit and self-employed street, it comes from the government themselves. Looks like they've just flushed nearly a trillion down the toilet for the hoax virus anyway. Imagine working your whole life paying £500k in tax then it all goes towards a fraction of some new app or computer system that doesn't even work and gets scrapped with no questions asked and no one held accountable
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Derek27
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Location: UK

How about a separate thread for CS's trial. Peter can be the judge, Shaun the prosecution, Alex can represent CS in his defence, and Dallas can pick 12 forum members who haven't had any discussion with CS? :lol:
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Derek27
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Location: UK

alexmr2 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:13 am
Morals don't come into tax any more IMO. Tax was originally introduced to balance the wealth between the rich and poor, until the rich reformed it to have the (working and middle class) poor pay for the poor, whilst the rich use their solicitors and accountants to use every loophole they can to avoid it.

The biggest tax fraud doesn't come from benefit and self-employed street, it comes from the government themselves. Looks like they've just flushed nearly a trillion down the toilet for the hoax virus anyway. Imagine working your whole life paying £500k in tax then it all goes towards a fraction of some new app or computer system that doesn't even work and gets scrapped with no questions asked and no one held accountable
That's a very, very old excuse for not doing/paying something. Britain's gone to war so I'm not paying tax to buy weapons that kill. The council/government is wasting money on this, that or the other so I'm not paying tax. If you don't want to pay tax or don't want to pay off a debt, you can always find a reason for not paying.
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gazuty
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Location: Green land :)

A short representation of what it looks like when a thread goes off topic and everyone else follows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLgQX74 ... e=youtu.be

Basically this is just to get me out of jury duty.
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Derek27
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Location: UK

gazuty wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:01 am
A short representation of what it looks like when a thread goes off topic and everyone else follows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLgQX74 ... e=youtu.be

Basically this is just to get me out of jury duty.
:lol: What a bunch of nutters.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

jimibt wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:27 pm
LinusP wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:55 am
Agreed, you are asking for trouble however I do withdraw via PayPal as banks don’t seem to ask questions but betfair restrict the amount and times you can withdraw.
sorry liam - for context here. do you mean that when you withdraw via payal, there are potential questions pending from betfair (vs normal bank withdrawals)??

sorry, my mono-brain isn't in assimilation mode today :D. i'm not in the high roller category but i do withdraw to my nominated account and have never had issues.
Any large sums or abnormal activity entering your bank account has the potential to raise alarms through the banks compliance systems, they are regulated so have to tick the box. However when you get a mortgage/loan you have to provide your bank statements for the past 3/6 months and the last thing you want is a gambling deposit/withdrawal. For example I had a student overdraft extension denied and my original removed when I was match betting.

The betfair PayPal withdrawal fee is separated and seems to be about 1.5%? once you go over the limit, which I think is 10k per week.
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wearthefoxhat
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Derek27 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:28 am
How about a separate thread for CS's trial. Peter can be the judge, Shaun the prosecution, Alex can represent CS in his defence, and Dallas can pick 12 forum members who haven't had any discussion with CS? :lol:
Would this thread in itself, be fruit of the poison tree?
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firlandsfarm
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Well I've seen this thread late and want to add my thoughts on the OP with complete disregard for the 'misunderstandings' ;) :lol:

and the humour ...
Derek27 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:28 am
How about a separate thread for CS's trial. Peter can be the judge, Shaun the prosecution, Alex can represent CS in his defence, and Dallas can pick 12 forum members who haven't had any discussion with CS? :lol:
... nice, brilliant summary :lol: :lol: :lol:

To the OP I would say two things ...
Crazyskier wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:29 pm
1) Open a business account
2) Withdraw all winnings to Paypal, never, ever to a debit card! Your bank will likely flag you immediately
3) Withdraw Paypal into your business account once per month
4) Transfer from said business account to current account on the last working day of each month (or 28th). Try to keep the amounts very similar (£2-4k ish) works very well
5) When you renew your mortgage or have any kind of credit check, simply state your employment as the name from which you pay yourself monthly, with full time employed being superior to self employed for insurance and risk assessment purposes

I've been doing this myself for many years, though I do genuinely have a small web and Google ads firm that accepts Paypal and transfers regularly into the business account from which I pay myself at the end of each month

Good luck!

CS
I can't see CS is doing anything illegal so long as he doesn't claim the regular payments are from a business/employer but how he answers the question "what's your income and where does it come from?" would be important. The danger he is running is that if he makes it look like he has a business and is receiving an income from it and HMRC latch onto it he could be called upon to explain why it should not be taxed. With HMRC you are guilty until proven innocent. It's not an enjoyable position to be in because once they start investigating one thing leads to another and they don't give up easily.

The second issue is (and it leads on from the questions CS may be asked by HMRC) whether your Bf trading is a business. Yes, I've been here before and exchanged 'discussion' with others in this forum. Betting is tax free, and on a casual basis it most certainly is but ... HMRC's basic definition of trading is to buy something with the intention of selling it for a profit. A simple example is the purchase of a car. Most people buy a car expecting it to go down in value, they do not expect to see a profit. But car dealers do expect to see a profit. What defines them as being a trade? Well they purchased the car expecting to make a profit and to add support they do it frequently. So if there is any doubt of the intention to make a profit the frequency of transactions comes into play. And let's face it we call it trading!

We hide behind that betting is tax free but that's not a defence if HMRC decide and win that 'trading' is trading and not betting. If you commence trading you have an obligation to disclose to HMRC that you are doing so within 3 months of commencement. If you fail to do so you expose yourself to being fined. This is to put the onus on you to say what you are doing and HMRC to tell you if in their view it is taxable or not. If they say it is you can always contest that in the Courts. It's similar to the Planning laws where you should tell your local authority what you are going to do (yes even putting up a garden fence) and wait for them to advise if you need planning permission or not.

Another "but betting is tax free" issue is if that's the case why do bookmakers pay tax? They are only betting (laying). What's the difference between a small independent 'high street' bookmaker taking bets from punters and laying them off on Betfair and us laying and backing on Betfair? Some of us will make more profit than the bookmaker. Why should they be taxed and us not? So far HMRC have ignored this aspect of our activities but the upcoming review could be a place for them to start to become interested. Remember the current 'tax free' position was formed when betting was nowhere near as popular as it is now and there was a clear distinction between a bookmaker (other than the few who provided a service from the bar in the local pub) and the 'man-in-the-street'. That distinction no longer exists.

Do I disclose my profits? No, of course I don't. But the difference is I don't need my profits to maintain a comfortable lifestyle so if someone changed the tax rules the only question I would ask myself is is this still a worthwhile use of my time but if my profits maintained my lifestyle I would see the possibility of taxation as a risk to my income. I believe we could be on borrowed time (Rishi will be looking for new sources of tax revenue and taxing betting traders such as us would probably be a positive in terms of vote winning!) so in making the "jack it all in and go full-time" decision I would certainly be wary until after the imminent review has been published, debated and quietened down.
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Crazyskier
Posts: 1157
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:40 am
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:06 pm
Well...

It seems a lot of assumptions have been made, and wrong ones at that.

There's a gulf of difference between declaring income accurately to HMRC (something I do in full and at the higher rate too, since 2003, for those interested!), and using a BACS credit from one's business account to one's personal account for insurance and credit checks. This is the element that works for me when not having a regular PAYE income, which was, I believe the OP's query.

To clarify, at no point have I suggested or condoned tax evasion.

CS
You haven't condoned tax evasion but you have condoned committing fraud including a full 'how to'. I assumed you held yourself to a higher moral standard than that.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/fraud-act-2006

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:
  • made a false representation dishonestly knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
    with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.
Fraud by failing to disclose information (Section 3)
The defendant:
  • failed to disclose information to another person when he was under a legal duty to disclose that information dishonestly intending, by that failure, to make a gain or cause a loss.
How do you plead CS?
There's nothing fraudulent in what I've suggested. You're over thinking it. As usual.

CS
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Kai
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Image

So 200 hours in the newbie automation forum section then??
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

alexmr2 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:13 am
Morals don't come into tax any more IMO. Tax was originally introduced to balance the wealth between the rich and poor, until the rich reformed it to have the (working and middle class) poor pay for the poor, whilst the rich use their solicitors and accountants to use every loophole they can to avoid it.
Calm down dear there's no issue about the tax. It's the fact you can't have your cake and eat it. It''s either "income" and therefore taxable or "gambling winnings" and therefore not recognised as income. 'Whatabouthimism' is popular these days but not a defence.

As for morality that's personal choice for most of us, do what you like I couldn't give a toss, but when you go out of your way to say you subscribe to a specific doctorine it's hypocritical to then start making up your own rules.
Last edited by ShaunWhite on Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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