Full Time

[wearthefoxhat]

How about a separate thread for CS's trial. Peter can be the judge, Shaun the prosecution, Alex can represent CS in his defence, and Dallas can pick 12 forum members who haven't had any discussion with CS?

Would this thread in itself, be fruit of the poison tree?

[firlandsfarm]

Well I've seen this thread late and want to add my thoughts on the OP with complete disregard for the 'misunderstandings'

and the humour ...

How about a separate thread for CS's trial. Peter can be the judge, Shaun the prosecution, Alex can represent CS in his defence, and Dallas can pick 12 forum members who haven't had any discussion with CS?

... nice, brilliant summary

To the OP I would say two things ...

1) Open a business account
2) Withdraw all winnings to Paypal, never, ever to a debit card! Your bank will likely flag you immediately
3) Withdraw Paypal into your business account once per month
4) Transfer from said business account to current account on the last working day of each month (or 28th). Try to keep the amounts very similar (£2-4k ish) works very well
5) When you renew your mortgage or have any kind of credit check, simply state your employment as the name from which you pay yourself monthly, with full time employed being superior to self employed for insurance and risk assessment purposes

I've been doing this myself for many years, though I do genuinely have a small web and Google ads firm that accepts Paypal and transfers regularly into the business account from which I pay myself at the end of each month

Good luck!

CS

I can't see CS is doing anything illegal so long as he doesn't claim the regular payments are from a business/employer but how he answers the question "what's your income and where does it come from?" would be important. The danger he is running is that if he makes it look like he has a business and is receiving an income from it and HMRC latch onto it he could be called upon to explain why it should not be taxed. With HMRC you are guilty until proven innocent. It's not an enjoyable position to be in because once they start investigating one thing leads to another and they don't give up easily.

The second issue is (and it leads on from the questions CS may be asked by HMRC) whether your Bf trading is a business. Yes, I've been here before and exchanged 'discussion' with others in this forum. Betting is tax free, and on a casual basis it most certainly is but ... HMRC's basic definition of trading is to buy something with the intention of selling it for a profit. A simple example is the purchase of a car. Most people buy a car expecting it to go down in value, they do not expect to see a profit. But car dealers do expect to see a profit. What defines them as being a trade? Well they purchased the car expecting to make a profit and to add support they do it frequently. So if there is any doubt of the intention to make a profit the frequency of transactions comes into play. And let's face it we call it trading!

We hide behind that betting is tax free but that's not a defence if HMRC decide and win that 'trading' is trading and not betting. If you commence trading you have an obligation to disclose to HMRC that you are doing so within 3 months of commencement. If you fail to do so you expose yourself to being fined. This is to put the onus on you to say what you are doing and HMRC to tell you if in their view it is taxable or not. If they say it is you can always contest that in the Courts. It's similar to the Planning laws where you should tell your local authority what you are going to do (yes even putting up a garden fence) and wait for them to advise if you need planning permission or not.

Another "but betting is tax free" issue is if that's the case why do bookmakers pay tax? They are only betting (laying). What's the difference between a small independent 'high street' bookmaker taking bets from punters and laying them off on Betfair and us laying and backing on Betfair? Some of us will make more profit than the bookmaker. Why should they be taxed and us not? So far HMRC have ignored this aspect of our activities but the upcoming review could be a place for them to start to become interested. Remember the current 'tax free' position was formed when betting was nowhere near as popular as it is now and there was a clear distinction between a bookmaker (other than the few who provided a service from the bar in the local pub) and the 'man-in-the-street'. That distinction no longer exists.

Do I disclose my profits? No, of course I don't. But the difference is I don't need my profits to maintain a comfortable lifestyle so if someone changed the tax rules the only question I would ask myself is is this still a worthwhile use of my time but if my profits maintained my lifestyle I would see the possibility of taxation as a risk to my income. I believe we could be on borrowed time (Rishi will be looking for new sources of tax revenue and taxing betting traders such as us would probably be a positive in terms of vote winning!) so in making the "jack it all in and go full-time" decision I would certainly be wary until after the imminent review has been published, debated and quietened down.

[Crazyskier]

Well...

It seems a lot of assumptions have been made, and wrong ones at that.

There's a gulf of difference between declaring income accurately to HMRC (something I do in full and at the higher rate too, since 2003, for those interested!), and using a BACS credit from one's business account to one's personal account for insurance and credit checks. This is the element that works for me when not having a regular PAYE income, which was, I believe the OP's query.

To clarify, at no point have I suggested or condoned tax evasion.

CS

You haven't condoned tax evasion but you have condoned committing fraud including a full 'how to'. I assumed you held yourself to a higher moral standard than that.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/fraud-act-2006

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:

• made a false representation dishonestly knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
  with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.

Fraud by failing to disclose information (Section 3)
The defendant:

• failed to disclose information to another person when he was under a legal duty to disclose that information dishonestly intending, by that failure, to make a gain or cause a loss.

How do you plead CS?

There's nothing fraudulent in what I've suggested. You're over thinking it. As usual.

CS

[Kai]

So 200 hours in the newbie automation forum section then??

[ShaunWhite]

Morals don't come into tax any more IMO. Tax was originally introduced to balance the wealth between the rich and poor, until the rich reformed it to have the (working and middle class) poor pay for the poor, whilst the rich use their solicitors and accountants to use every loophole they can to avoid it.

Calm down dear there's no issue about the tax. It's the fact you can't have your cake and eat it. It''s either "income" and therefore taxable or "gambling winnings" and therefore not recognised as income. 'Whatabouthimism' is popular these days but not a defence.

As for morality that's personal choice for most of us, do what you like I couldn't give a toss, but when you go out of your way to say you subscribe to a specific doctorine it's hypocritical to then start making up your own rules.

[ShaunWhite]

There's nothing fraudulent in what I've suggested. You're over thinking it. As usual.

CS

Then why the jumping through hoops, why not just move your Betfair income straight to your current account?

[Kai]

Can the persecution give it a rest already?

Not sure traders overall have the moral high ground in a grey industry like this. People try to make the best of things, what's wrong with live and let live.

Casual banter is one thing but isn't openly assaulting someone's core moral principles and beliefs a bit over the top? I don't see that ending well. My earlier jokes about money laundering were made after I've realized it's not money laundering, that was the whole point.

[ShaunWhite]

openly assaulting someone's core moral principles and beliefs a bit over the top?

He and I have a history of frank discussions so we both know the score, he'll have a pop at me being 'woke' and I have a pop at him about being who he is. It's just what we do. I should just chat with him privately, this wasn't supposed to draw a crowd all offering to hold our jackets.

I appreciate you're just trying to put flowers in gun barrels here kai but this isn't WW3.

[Kai]

Ah okay, more settling of old scores then? That Jeff guy disappeared soon as he settled all of his scores, what a great service to the community.

Absolutely open a private discussion if you've got genuine advice for CS on how to do things better

But you certainly don't need his public confession about moral ambiguity, the fact that he is even involved in the gambling industry would tell you that it's all open to interpretation. I'm not even sure how productive it is to get into arguments with highly religious individuals in the first place, to each their own but (spoiler alert) they would absolutely die on that hill, on any hill really.

[firlandsfarm]

So 200 hours in the newbie automation forum section then??