The Oasis

A place to discuss anything.
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Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Not in the habit of creating threads but I wanted to get a quick message across after I was asked one too many questions about the forum recently. A message to those that don't believe the forum is actually real. Just wanted to give a clear enough answer to those that don't believe that forum contributors are real people. Dallas will know who the most recent disbeliever is that I'm talking about, but it's irrelevant as I've heard all sorts of wild theories from others before : that forum is fake, that myself and others are only staff, that I'm secretly Peter or some random bloke from Bristol etc, it's astonishing, there's even people on Youtube making videos to explain how Psychoff is a fraud and so on... Now there are those that misunderstand the purpose of the forum, like the poster 2 days ago that called Dallas a disgrace for not uploading profitable automation for him to conveniently use, but that is somewhat understandable.

Now I realize that many people wander this so-called desert in their quest to find the Holy Grail, maybe now more than ever, and that many genuinely don't know whether the forum is just a mirage, an illusion that is spawned out of their desperation, or whether it's an actual oasis built smack-bang in the middle of desert. Still, there is only one answer that I can give to that question and I want to make it clear enough....

The forum is an oasis of advice in a desert of noise.

Because if it weren't, would the whole narrative here not be different then? Would so many contributors give away so many warnings of danger and extreme difficulty? But obviously, this goes much deeper and there will always be people that believe that sports trading overall is absolute hogwash, that order flow trading is a myth and that it's impossible to profit without knowing the sport etc. But we're not talking about a religion here and you don't need faith to blindly believe, it's the exact opposite and there is an exact science to it, you only need a sensible head on your shoulders and the ability to actually use it. So I think the advice here is obvious enough. If somehow not, then I simply must cheekily suggest to use the head for more than a hat rack, you would be amazed at the result!

However, an oasis is just that, an oasis, it's not the final destination is it? It's only a place to stop by and rest your weary legs, to refresh and fill your canteen, to maybe share a story with a fellow traveler that is passing by, before you shake their hand and move on with your journey...

And to those that pass by the oasis without even stopping to drink from the well of knowledge, and to those than abandon it in search for water in the desert instead, to those fools I can only wish the very best of luck, because I suspect they will need it.

If I were to stick to this desert analogy and briefly touch on the apparent myth behind order flow trading, I would say that it's not for everyone but that it's not a secret order either, I would say that it's certainly not a myth and that there are many that wear this seal, there are many Knights Templar of the Order Flow, there are countless Paladin of the Order of the Flow, or however you want to put it. And yes, each does indeed have a sacred duty to protect their own Holy Grail from infidels and disbelievers and raiders, but sorry to say I do not think that those that wear this crest should be invading faraway lands like a common raider for the sake of looting and pillaging.

Point being, there are no stupid questions and there is no real shame in asking them. Only an idiot doesn't ever ask any questions, that is how he stays an idiot, but one really does have to then be able to find the right answers, and doubly so if they're going to be asking the wrong questions.

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wearthefoxhat
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LeTiss
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Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

I didn't realise people were actually suggesting we're not real people!!

Trading is hard. It requires effort, patience and discipline

There is a definite reward at the end of it, but too many can't be bothered to put in the hard miles. They want shortcuts, which may be driven by financial problems as much as laziness or arrogance. So when they don't succeed immediately, their frustration and jealousy can override rationality

This is what drives some of those strugglers to question the validity of those who are winning
They are angry, but invariably they are angry at themselves for not being able to crack it
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Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

LeTiss wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 2:41 pm
I didn't realise people were actually suggesting we're not real people!!

Trading is hard. It requires effort, patience and discipline
Nice try Peter!!!
jamesg46
Posts: 3769
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

Kai wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:06 pm
LeTiss wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 2:41 pm
I didn't realise people were actually suggesting we're not real people!!

Trading is hard. It requires effort, patience and discipline
Nice try Peter!!!
:lol:
Trader Pat
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

The forum is fake? Haven't heard that one before.

If there are people who believe that though who cares? Just put them in the same category as people who think the Earth is flat, idiots who think Covid-19 isn't real and those who think Man Utd is the biggest club in the world.
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Nobody's belief surprises me anymore!
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Euler
Posts: 24702
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm
Location: Bet Angel HQ

Derek27 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm
Nobody's belief surprises me anymore!
Agree
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Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Derek27 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:23 pm
Nobody's belief surprises me anymore!
I think your rant thread is evidence to the contrary! :)

But seriously though, maybe it's better for the forum as a whole to collectively accept most things as a compliment, since things from the outside can seem too good to be true, like so many people making an income off sports or even making a living out of it etc.

In a way it's a sign of doing damn good work overall. High fives all around??
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

The concept of buying low and selling high apparently dates back to about 4,800BCE. If it's impossible to make money doing it you'd think people would have given it up after 6,800 yrs of trying. :roll:

You can't beat the doubters so you just have to let It go and roll with it. Don't look back in anger or be driven to cigarettes and alcohol.
greenmark
Posts: 4948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Fake forum? Sharp forumites will note I have only ever asked one technical question.
Why?
Because every single obstacle I've encountered I've overcome by googling a question suffixed with "betangel" and got my answer. Invariably from Dallas or the other wise owls on here.
In fact, if I had listened to some of the general advice on here, rather than ignoring it, or wanting to prove it for myself, I would have saved myself an enormous amount of time.
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:29 pm
The concept of buying low and selling high apparently dates back to about 4,800BCE. If it's impossible to make money doing it you'd think people would have given it up after 6,800 yrs of trying. :roll:
You can only imagine what knowledge must have been lost in the sands of time, with barely only footprints left... until maybe reinvented at some point again, something we apparently have a real knack for :)
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Morbius
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:38 pm

Kai wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 2:07 pm
Not in the habit of creating threads but I wanted to get a quick message across after I was asked one too many questions about the forum recently. A message to those that don't believe the forum is actually real. Just wanted to give a clear enough answer to those that don't believe that forum contributors are real people. Dallas will know who the most recent disbeliever is that I'm talking about, but it's irrelevant as I've heard all sorts of wild theories from others before : that forum is fake, that myself and others are only staff, that I'm secretly Peter or some random bloke from Bristol etc, it's astonishing, there's even people on Youtube making videos to explain how Psychoff is a fraud and so on... Now there are those that misunderstand the purpose of the forum, like the poster 2 days ago that called Dallas a disgrace for not uploading profitable automation for him to conveniently use, but that is somewhat understandable.

Now I realize that many people wander this so-called desert in their quest to find the Holy Grail, maybe now more than ever, and that many genuinely don't know whether the forum is just a mirage, an illusion that is spawned out of their desperation, or whether it's an actual oasis built smack-bang in the middle of desert. Still, there is only one answer that I can give to that question and I want to make it clear enough....

The forum is an oasis of advice in a desert of noise.

Because if it weren't, would the whole narrative here not be different then? Would so many contributors give away so many warnings of danger and extreme difficulty? But obviously, this goes much deeper and there will always be people that believe that sports trading overall is absolute hogwash, that order flow trading is a myth and that it's impossible to profit without knowing the sport etc. But we're not talking about a religion here and you don't need faith to blindly believe, it's the exact opposite and there is an exact science to it, you only need a sensible head on your shoulders and the ability to actually use it. So I think the advice here is obvious enough. If somehow not, then I simply must cheekily suggest to use the head for more than a hat rack, you would be amazed at the result!

However, an oasis is just that, an oasis, it's not the final destination is it? It's only a place to stop by and rest your weary legs, to refresh and fill your canteen, to maybe share a story with a fellow traveler that is passing by, before you shake their hand and move on with your journey...

And to those that pass by the oasis without even stopping to drink from the well of knowledge, and to those than abandon it in search for water in the desert instead, to those fools I can only wish the very best of luck, because I suspect they will need it.

If I were to stick to this desert analogy and briefly touch on the apparent myth behind order flow trading, I would say that it's not for everyone but that it's not a secret order either, I would say that it's certainly not a myth and that there are many that wear this seal, there are many Knights Templar of the Order Flow, there are countless Paladin of the Order of the Flow, or however you want to put it. And yes, each does indeed have a sacred duty to protect their own Holy Grail from infidels and disbelievers and raiders, but sorry to say I do not think that those that wear this crest should be invading faraway lands like a common raider for the sake of looting and pillaging.

Point being, there are no stupid questions and there is no real shame in asking them. Only an idiot doesn't ever ask any questions, that is how he stays an idiot, but one really does have to then be able to find the right answers, and doubly so if they're going to be asking the wrong questions.

Image


This post might be long but then again I've done a few "war and peace" posts since I joined and this reply can't be condensed to do this topic justice. So where to begin, firstly I want everything that I am about to say to be taken as constructive and not seen in any way other than that, in fact if you read this carefully you will see that its actually saying what you said but just better :-). While probably everything that you say is true Kai, I honestly didn't see the point in the thread and for the reason being that you cannot change what is! The thread has no strategic objective to it and could have been 10k words in length with more imagery and it wouldn't change a thing.

Your comments on "order flow" is old news to anyone that has studied this stuff. Not only is it old news but "electronic order flow" has been around since the first ECN's like Selectnet were introduced in 1969. In fact the mechanics of order flow were discussed in Lefevre's book where he discussed the strategies of Livermore but true order flow trading is a lot older than that. Anybody who hasn't studied this stuff and who is ignorant of it isn't going to be enlightened by this thread. The analogy here with Covid and many people's reactions to it is apt. What we are dealing with here are abstracts and when people have no direct experience of something or of people discussing their "knowledge" and "experiences" then there will always be disbelievers and people quoting government cover ups and silly "this is tyranny" banners from people who basically cannot work through the unseen complexities. Neil de Grasse Tyson pretty much nailed it early during the pandemic when he said that we were living through a grand experiment and that experiment was "will people listen to science". Science is truth but science illiterate people don't know it is.

It doesn't matter what "proof" or "evidence" you put forward, it will not change these people. I lost my father to Covid last December and shortly after that it nearly took my life. But this is the internet so no matter what I say in whichever way I choose to say it there will be people who will warp these words because it fits how they view the world or covers up their own misgivings. When it comes to trading then the size of the internet and the material on it is both a blessing and a curse.

Peter for example has produced a lot of YT videos, I have probably seen more than most. But therein lays the problem. If you produce one video nobody takes you seriously, produce 1000 and people think you are swamping the market with an agenda. So this then begs the question, in terms of YT videos, what is the correct number?? There isn't one! But I will say that when you produce more than is required to get the job done or inadvertently provide people with information overload then this will have diminishing consequences. People are then in danger of not seeing your message or warping your motives but this is an obstacle that anyone with a business has with the internet.

Forex for example has a shocking reputation with regards to educational material hence the term "trader porn" and "forex porn". There are clear reasons why people stray from the proper path in trading similar to how they do it in poker. I would like to think after 30 years in risk markets and working with some of the best people in poker and Wall Street that I know what time of day it is. But I am also a big believer in the deep wisdom of the old adages...."you can't educate pork" and "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".....There is an old Chinese proverb that I like that goes "when the pupil is ready the teacher arrives". This means that the pupil must be at the right stage in their development to accept education or in this instance even perceive it to be valuable or the credibility of the person giving it.

Here's the thing, early in my sports trading progression I doubted Peter. Its a natural process and the linkage and ingredients are clear....internet.....abstraction......not knowing him personally.....too many conflicting voices......selling Betangel.....possible connection to BF......loads of YT videos etc etc etc. This is an entirely logical thought sequence and it would take a prolonged educational process to eventually work through this problem to finally conclude that when you really understand trading and order flow especially in horseracing markets then you finally realise that Peter not only knows his stuff but has travelled this road before and then you cease being a trading version of a "Covid Idiot". But seeking education from the internet should be a guarded affair. Anyone would be a fool to blindly believe everything they were told online and we all know the reasons why. Flip side, anyone would equally be a fool to disbelieve everything they hear too. The key is to get the balance but this requires intellect, unfortunately this is where many fall short. It also requires hard work and the desire to work the problem and to seek the right "geniuses" to stand on the shoulders of.

"Fools must learn by experience, I on the other hand prefer to learn from other people's experiences" - Bismarck

This is why this thread won't solve anything. it won't convince anyone in the same way that me discussing my Covid experiences won't convince the "David Icke" conspiracy nutters and denialists. In fact it would probably give them more leeway to dig into the motives behind the thread and give them even more fuel to warp your words. it is what it is!!!

Carl
Trader Pat
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Morbius wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:26 pm
I lost my father to Covid last December and shortly after that it nearly took my life.

Sorry to hear that Carl.

When I watch the news and see people doubting the existence of Covid or just those who don't want to wear a mask because of some BS or other it winds me up but its personal for you and must be even worse to listen to.
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Morbius wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:26 pm
I lost my father to Covid last December and shortly after that it nearly took my life.
I know I offered my condolences months ago but once again, I'm sorry for your loss and hopefully you've made a full recovery. Speaking of, my whole family went through Covid in April now but luckily unscathed, timely Pfizer vaccinations have truly made all the difference so very lucky there indeed. Actually, self-isolation is why I dropped by the forum again as well, it's good to have a bit of a distraction sometimes.
Morbius wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:26 pm
The thread has no strategic objective to it and could have been 10k words in length with more imagery and it wouldn't change a thing.
Well, not sure what sort of strategic objective the thread should have since I have not thought that far ahead! :lol:

I rarely do when I just follow my whim and speak what's on my mind, I only felt the urge to say something :) Since we can't properly discuss trading there's not many real topics left anyway, but I know all posts and videos get buried very fast either way, so it does feel pointless at times.

However, I was hoping to maybe sway a few opinions in this very moment, and I think I did because I've already received an apology message from the most recent disbeliever and he says he sent an apology to Dallas as well! :D I guess we take what small victories we can get, good enough for me.

Besides, you already know how much I love analogies and idioms etc, and how much fun I like to have with your language, so I'll take any excuse I can get :D Maybe overdid it a bit although I had fun and hopefully you liked one or two Carl :)

But I'll shut up now before someone gets seriously offended and posts "oi who you calling idiom mate??"
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