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sprocket501
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:58 am

Hello, I am a new member.

I have been using the practice mode for about a week now and have recorded seven consecutive and decent 'profitable days' using virtual stakes akin to what I would use if I was using the real money version.

I should note that I'm starting with what you would call a tiny bankroll and I think that may be a factor in the problems I encountered on my first day yesterday of using the real money trader where I froze and panicked on every single trade I attempted. Scared money I guess.

Are there any psychological tips that anyone can share that would enable me to get over this hurdle or is it a simple case of waiting until I am able to deposit more into my account? But even then, my fear of losing (which can be traced back to a very poor upbringing) is still likely to play a huge factor.

I have watched a large amount of the videos in the academy, which I should say are excellent, and I feel reasonably confident at reading a market but as I said, froze and panicked the moment it went the wrong way yesterday.

Thanks for reading these incoherent ramblings.
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Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Welcome, that's a pretty eloquent opening post.

In short you have to slowly get used to risking money if you want to trade effectively, it is a game of risk management in a nutshell, very few risk-free strategies left out there and outages carry an element of risk as well. But many good and top traders started from tiny amounts, you don't need to deposit much at all to start learning, you can slowly build a trading bank yourself.

But re-evaluate whether this suits your personality or not, obviously there is no safety of a guaranteed paycheck at the end of the week or month, you practically hunt and eat what you kill. That being said, nobody is born a trader and all of the skills need to be built up anyway to complete the set.
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Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

sprocket501 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:17 pm
But even then, my fear of losing (which can be traced back to a very poor upbringing) is still likely to play a huge factor.
Forgot to say, I don't see your very poor upbringing as a potential handicap, it can be a big advantage and strength instead if you really tap into it 👍
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alexmr2
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

It will take a few weeks or months to get a feel for what you are doing. When I first started I spent about 3 months in practice mode then moved to £100 live bank.

My advice would be to start small and try to get the balance so that you aren't going to be emotionally affected by the losses, there is no shortcut and a huge psychological barrier to scaling up unfortunately. It takes a lot of practice to do this with decent amounts of money but if you keep trying, anything is possible
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

See the money you put in Betfair as already spent and it's all just about making it last as long as possible, or as pre-paying for a series of lessons. Get used to the idea you probably won't see it again and if you do ok then that's a bonus, a discount on next week's lessons.

I don't want to sound like the Gambling Commission but do limit yourself though, maybe say you'll have £10 a week and when it's gone it's gone. It'll keep you on your toes if you know making a mistake will mean you have to take 3 days off rather than just topping up and pretending it didn't happen.
sprocket501
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:58 am

Kai wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:46 pm
Welcome, that's a pretty eloquent opening post.

In short you have to slowly get used to risking money if you want to trade effectively, it is a game of risk management in a nutshell, very few risk-free strategies left out there and outages carry an element of risk as well. But many good and top traders started from tiny amounts, you don't need to deposit much at all to start learning, you can slowly build a trading bank yourself.

But re-evaluate whether this suits your personality or not, obviously there is no safety of a guaranteed paycheck at the end of the week or month, you practically hunt and eat what you kill. That being said, nobody is born a trader and all of the skills need to be built up anyway to complete the set.
Excellent advice, thank you.

I really focussed today and traded over thirty races with real money. I forced myself to use tiny stakes and set targets of achieving a profit on each race meeting rather than every race. I was rigorous in not letting orders go in-play and tried as far as I could to ignore a running P/L status.

It ended up being a good day. I made profit on each of the six meetings before stopping at around 6.30pm and increased my bankroll by 2.5%. I have no idea if this a good ROI or not but if it's green, I'm happy. It's all about practice and learning for now.

So thanks to all who answered here and other threads.
sprocket501
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:58 am

alexmr2 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 1:41 pm
It will take a few weeks or months to get a feel for what you are doing. When I first started I spent about 3 months in practice mode then moved to £100 live bank.

My advice would be to start small and try to get the balance so that you aren't going to be emotionally affected by the losses, there is no shortcut and a huge psychological barrier to scaling up unfortunately. It takes a lot of practice to do this with decent amounts of money but if you keep trying, anything is possible
It is reassuring to read this as it is what I suspected the 'answer' to be.
Anbell
Posts: 2004
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

sprocket501 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:33 pm
Kai wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:46 pm
Welcome, that's a pretty eloquent opening post.

In short you have to slowly get used to risking money if you want to trade effectively, it is a game of risk management in a nutshell, very few risk-free strategies left out there and outages carry an element of risk as well. But many good and top traders started from tiny amounts, you don't need to deposit much at all to start learning, you can slowly build a trading bank yourself.

But re-evaluate whether this suits your personality or not, obviously there is no safety of a guaranteed paycheck at the end of the week or month, you practically hunt and eat what you kill. That being said, nobody is born a trader and all of the skills need to be built up anyway to complete the set.
Excellent advice, thank you.

I really focussed today and traded over thirty races with real money. I forced myself to use tiny stakes and set targets of achieving a profit on each race meeting rather than every race. I was rigorous in not letting orders go in-play and tried as far as I could to ignore a running P/L status.

It ended up being a good day. I made profit on each of the six meetings before stopping at around 6.30pm and increased my bankroll by 2.5%. I have no idea if this a good ROI or not but if it's green, I'm happy. It's all about practice and learning for now.

So thanks to all who answered here and other threads.
It seems like you are on the right path.

One piece of advice: Nearly everyone here will tell you not to have a target profit per meeting. You can only take what the market gives you.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

alexmr2 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 1:41 pm
psychological barrier to scaling up ....
People have some funny ideas about scaling up and get it in their head that it's a big deal, and they freak themselves out.

What actually happens is you start with £2, eventually it doesn't seem enough to keep you interested or you're doing ok, so you make it £5 and you're getting the same feelings as you did when you started on £2 Maybe a while later you'll go 10, ditto. One day you wake up and it's 500s and 1000s and you don't remember quite how it happened, but you think about it in exactly the same way you thought about £2 when you started. Just "scale up" when you're current scale starts to feel trivial.

Or....if you have your default at £2 and usually have 1, 2 or 3 click markets depending on your confidence, maybe you'll naturally start having 3,4 or 5 click markets instead.

A old expression I've used a lot here, stake enough for it to matter but not so much it really matters. You'll find your own level without having to turn it into a drama.
Tetras
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 pm

I wouldn't worry about trying to make money, but to focus on what you're doing and why.

In other words, are you following your plan? (cutting your losses, selecting your exits carefully, managing risk according to market, etc)

Then, evaluate if you need to make adjustments.

Have a fixed exit or market movement in mind for each trade (e.g. in a market with two short favs, if one of them breaches evens), that tells you in advance it went wrong.

Watch back your recorded trades, if you have any big losses, or panicky moments. If you're scared of the trade it's not always a bad sign, it can be a sign that you don't know what's going to happen, so perhaps you could work more on recognising when it's 'safe' and less safe to leave money in the market.
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Morbius
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:38 pm

Kai wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 1:07 pm
sprocket501 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:17 pm
But even then, my fear of losing (which can be traced back to a very poor upbringing) is still likely to play a huge factor.
Forgot to say, I don't see your very poor upbringing as a potential handicap, it can be a big advantage and strength instead if you really tap into it 👍

Hi fella and welcome to the forum. I just wanted to reply to this because I had the same problem for the same reason very early in my career. That was poker years ago but the same thing. Psychological scars can seem difficult to overcome and in fact there is an actual recognised condition for fear of losing and spending money but I've forgotten what that phobia is called.

I'm not saying you have this, I'm just saying that our mental programming can sometimes be a tough nut to crack. However there are ways to ring fence this problem and certain tricks work better for different people.

Example.... Let's say someone is nervous almost to the point of being scared to lose £200 trading. Now let's say your job pays you £10 hour. Ask your boss for overtime if that's possible and get the money that way or maybe get a second job for a while or sell items on ebay you don't need or whatever. Then TRY to see it as 20 hours of time rather than £200.

Time is money but its amazing how many people value money more than time but they are essentially the same thing. We all waste huge amounts of time doing crap but why not spend that time earning money to fund your trading?? Then the key is to put your money straight into your trading account BEFORE any emotional attachment has time to manifest. It's the emotional attachment to money that hinders traders from scaling up and bad money management and having no quantifiable edge that ruins them when they do.
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Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Yep, but pretty much everyone has to go through the same journey, although some really like taking the scenic route :D Even though they know that the shortest route would be a direct straight line! :)

Very difficult to trade without any fear at the start since real confidence is a rare commodity at that point, and if you're trading without confidence you're just going to get bullied by your emotions first and then consequently by the market as well.

It's very counter-intuitive in a sense, you sort of have to learn how to lose first before you can even start winning, which will make sense later if it doesn't right away.

And ultimately, it's one hell of a journey, you more or less start as this clueless idiot on Day 1...

Image

... and the goal is to become this battle-scarred veteran on Day 1001.

Image

So as you can imagine it's not an easy journey :) Even when you fully know which direction to go etc. Good luck either way though.
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