Betfair has taken from my account 400£ on voiding bets the next day.

A place to discuss anything.
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Tuco
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:43 pm

LeTiss wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:27 pm

That's bollocks.
Have you dealt with them, or are you just guessing?
Yes I have dealt with them trying to sort out an F1 'To Finish Top 6' market at the 2019 Japanese GP where they initially settled correctly (at the time of the podium - about 15 minutes after the race finished), then 3 hours later they re-settled the market incorrectly after a stewards inquiry had given one of the top 6 drivers drivers a post-race and post podium time penalty.

As you will know, in F1 the official results at the time of the podium taking place are what Betfair use to settle the numerous race markets.

Trying to get someone to understand that they were incorrect to re-settle the Top 6 market as a result of a post-race and post podium stewards time penalty decision was impossible and I was not able to directly communicate with someone in authority. This was shortly after they finished their customer service telephone line.

Your experience of Betfair via Twitter might be a good one, mine certainly is not...so your 'That's bollocks' is utter bollocks LeTiss!

Have you actually used them or are you just guessing?
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wearthefoxhat
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

Realrocknrolla wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:30 pm
LeTiss wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:27 pm
Tuco wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:41 pm

...fine if you want to have a market added or something so simple - no good when someone has settled a market incorrectly as you cannot contact said person directly - you can only communicate with a twitter agent who simply passes on info.
That's bollocks.
Have you dealt with them, or are you just guessing?

This week I was trying to withdraw £500 to my account, but it bounced back saying there was a problem.
The money was taken from my account, but I didn't know what happened, so I spoke to BF on Twitter.
They initially said the banking details were wrong, but I said that's crap as my card is stored, so I never entered anything.
I then deposited £10 just to see for sure
BF came back and said there was a problem their end for 2 minutes with withdrawals not being processed properly. They sorted it out, I withdrew £510 and they gave me a £15 free Sportsbook bet

Capture.JPG
Nice treble tonight for that £15 sports bet.
Remember to take the Edge option in case one lets you down.
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LeTiss
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Tuco wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 pm

Your experience of Betfair via Twitter might be a good one, mine certainly is not...so your 'That's bollocks' is utter bollocks LeTiss!

Have you actually used them or are you just guessing?
Strange response.

You were the one initially being confrontational by suggesting my only experience with Betfair Twitter could only be to simply add markets. You were the one saying they can't deal with specifics on accounts

I was giving you evidence that's not true
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Tuco
Posts: 601
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LeTiss wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:11 pm
Tuco wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 pm

Your experience of Betfair via Twitter might be a good one, mine certainly is not...so your 'That's bollocks' is utter bollocks LeTiss!

Have you actually used them or are you just guessing?
Strange response.

You were the one initially being confrontational by suggesting my only experience with Betfair Twitter could only be to simply add markets. You were the one saying they can't deal with specifics on accounts

I was giving you evidence that's not true
I actually said:
Tuco wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:41 pm
...fine if you want to have a market added or something so simple - no good when someone has settled a market incorrectly as you cannot contact said person directly - you can only communicate with a twitter agent who simply passes on info.
...sorting out an account specific is relatively simple. Getting someone to understand that having settled a market correctly and in line with their published market rules but then incorrectly re-settling the market a couple of hours later not in line with their published market rules was not so simple - they weren't interested in re-visiting the re-settlement to see if it was made in error and not as per their published market rules!

The BF F1 rules for all the main raceday markets (Winner, Podium Finish (Top 3), Top 6, Points Finish (Top 10)) are as follows:

"This market will be settled based on the result at the time of the podium presentation"

2021 Russian F1 GP Market Rules.jpg
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Tuco
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...you may as well hear the rest of this matter:

Japanese F1 GP @ Suzuka, Japan on Sunday 13 October 2019 starting at 0610 BST (British Summer Time = GMT+1) / 1410 JST (Japanese Standard Time = GMT +9).

Bottas won the race in 1hr21m meaning the race finished approx 1534 JST (allowing 3 minutes for the warm-up lap.)

Leclerc crossed the finishing line in sixth place with Daniel Ricciardo in seventh place:

F1 Japanese GP Result 1 25%.jpg
F1 Japanese GP Result 2 25%.jpg

The podium presentation took place approx 15 minutes after the race finish, therefore at approx. 1549 JST.

In line with their market rules, Betfair correctly settled all of the markets immediately after the podium presentation.

At 1605 JST the FIA published their Race Provisional Classification (Doc 37 @ 1605 JST) showing Leclerc in sixth place and Ricciardo in seventh place.

F1 Japanese GP Provisional Race Classification Doc 37.jpg
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Tuco
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Two hours later at 1805 JST, the FIA Stewards as shown below, published the report of their post race findings as shown in FIA Docs 38 and 40 which gave Charles Leclerc a 5 second and 10 second penalty to be added to his race time:

F1 Japanese GP - Race Stewards.jpg
doc_38_-_2019_japanese_grand_prix_-_offence_-_car_16_turn_1_incident_with_car_33.jpg
doc_40_-_2019_japanese_grand_prix_-_offence_-_car_16_unsafe_condition.jpg

When these 15 seconds were added to the race time of Leclerc, it demoted him from sixth place to seventh place and promoted Danial Ricciardo from seventh to sixth place.

It was at this time that Betfair decided to ignore their own market rules as previously shown which state:

"This market will be settled based on the result at the time of the podium presentation"

...and re-settle the Top 6 Finish market with Ricciardo being a top 6 finish winner (for backers - loser for layers) and Leclerc being a Top 6 loser (loser for backers - winner for layers).

Betfair re-settled the Top 6 market after the publication of Stewards decision to demote Leclerc from 6th place to 7th place and to promote Ricciardo from 7th place to 6th place after the time penalties had been added to Leclercs time.

This Top 6 Finish market re-settling therefore took place after 1805 JST being more than 2hours and 20 minutes after the podium presentation had taken place!


Despite contacting Betfair through Twitter DM I was eventually told by the agent (days later) that the BF Trading Team had re-settled the Top 6 Finish market and were not prepared to re-visit their decision to do so, my only option being to take the matter to IBAS.
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Tuco
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To add insult to injury, on 23 October 2019 (10 days after the race had finished!), the FIA disqualified Ricciardo and Hulkenberg (both Renault drivers) for 'use of driver aids' meaning that Leclerc finished in sixth place and Ricciardo was disqualified and unplaced as shown in FIA doc 51 below:

F1 Japanese GP Official Race Classification Doc 51.jpg


2019 Japanese Grand Prix: Race Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0G4-Vp2TS0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Japanese_Grand_Prix
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stueytrader
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I think Tuco is hitting the nail on the head, for where the biggest difficulties lie in dealing with BF disputes.

It is where there are specific rulings (often post-hoc) about how markets should be settled/voided etc. Often these are due to external body rulings of some sort.

I had a historic case many years back now, where I'd backed top Xmas day TV programme. They settled on overnight (which are not consolidated or finalised) figures. A little while later full figures were produced showing my selection as the top viewed.

Their market rules did not state whether it would be 'overnights' or 'consolidated' - but they made the assumption to use the overnight figure, which made my bet a loser (despite backing the finally consolidated the winner).

Sadly, it wasn't just BF who screwed me on this. I appealed to IBAS and they also supported BF, despite the fact there was no indication it would be the overnight figure used. IBAS informed me I should have been able to see it was 'implied' in their rules that overnights (estimates) would be used to settle the market. That was a ridiculous statement to claim as proof of no liability for the people creating and ruling on the market.

That really shook me for a long time - that even regulatory bodies can be so awful in interpreting rulings like that. If they can, why should BF be any better? I am just ultra cautious these days - I rarely bet in events that have any potential for misinterpreting a result. But, sometimes it is difficult to avoid, I can see in cases such as on this thread.
stueytrader
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Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

To add a subsequent update - the year later the rule was clearly added that the specific 'overnight' figures would be used.

This was essentially proof that such an indication should have been in the rules the previous year, and that the previous rules were negligent.

IBAS ignored me when I pointed that out, saying the case had already been closed. Great.
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