Proof of winnings is no longer enough!

[jamesedwards]

I'm having more and more gambling companies (not Betfair yet) refusing to count 'income from gambling winnings' or 'cash at hand/savings' as proof of my ability to fund a gambling account. I've just had a provider who I am in 5-digit profit with close my account due to my "lack of demonstrable affordability".

Although it was always a pain in the ass, eventually these companies used to accept bank statements showing consistent Betfair withdrawals and screenshots showing annual Betfair P&L. But increasingly I find they have no interest in my Betfair income and no interest in my bank balance. They want a P60 with corroborating bank statements that demonstrate employment with a large enough income to pass affordability tests.

This is becoming a serious problem for me as a full-time Betfair trader as I do lots of hedging/cross matching etc. I need a plan! The options I can think of are:
> Set up my own Ltd business, make "loans" to the business and then pay myself a salary. Presumably this would be legal? Obvious issue here would be personal income tax and NI etc. And would HMRC get funny about why I was running a business with no income and growing debt? Also sounds like a whole heap of administrative pain.
> Get a friend's Ltd business to employ me. Similar to the option above but I give them money which they then pay to me as a salary.
> Become a landlord. Has anyone here successfully used rental income as proof of gambling affordability?
> Get a permanent job for three months then quit. A ridiculous waste of time.
> Move to Ireland. Don't even know if this would make any difference?

Any help or ideas/comments much appreciated.

[Realrocknrolla]

I'm having more and more gambling companies (not Betfair yet) refusing to count 'income from gambling winnings' or 'cash at hand/savings' as proof of my ability to fund a gambling account. I've just had a provider who I am in 5-digit profit with close my account due to my "lack of demonstrable affordability".

Although it was always a pain in the ass, eventually these companies used to accept bank statements showing consistent Betfair withdrawals and screenshots showing annual Betfair P&L. But increasingly I find they have no interest in my Betfair income and no interest in my bank balance. They want a P60 with corroborating bank statements that demonstrate employment with a large enough income to pass affordability tests.

This is becoming a serious problem for me as a full-time Betfair trader as I do lots of hedging/cross matching etc. I need a plan! The options I can think of are:
> Set up my own Ltd business, make "loans" to the business and then pay myself a salary. Presumably this would be legal? Obvious issue here would be personal income tax and NI etc. And would HMRC get funny about why I was running a business with no income and growing debt? Also sounds like a whole heap of administrative pain.
> Get a friend's Ltd business to employ me. Similar to the option above but I give them money which they then pay to me as a salary.
> Become a landlord. Has anyone here successfully used rental income as proof of gambling affordability?
> Get a permanent job for three months then quit. A ridiculous waste of time.

Any help or ideas/comments much appreciated.

What is your age James?

[jamesedwards]

What is your age James?

40.

ish

[Realrocknrolla]

What is your age James?

40.

ish

Lol.

Most people I know that are/have been successful with Bet365 or others have pretty much been restricted due to the amount they win. They can get 20p on 2/1 as an example.

All same ages as me and you.

There was a post earlier about setting up a company and paying yourself from Paypal. I’ll gave a dig to see if I can find it! Seemed good

[Krystian]

Do you know maybe what amounts ??
''demonstrate employment with a large enough income to pass affordability tests''

[jamesedwards]

Do you know maybe what amounts ??
''demonstrate employment with a large enough income to pass affordability tests''

No, that's the other annoying thing. It could be that they just need a nominal amount to tick a box, or it could be the salary amount needs to cover the entire affordability requirement.

[Realrocknrolla]

I've said this before, but by going the sole trader route (free Starling business and personal accounts, BTW) and paying yourself by withdrawing profits to Paypal then Paypal to business account and then business account to personal account, there is no almost zero negative impact on one's credit score, other than 'employed' being considered safer than 'self employed' for lending purposes.

The worst that happens with any credit application is the lenders do an 'open banking' check of income into personal, or you can usually provide 3 months' worth of business banking statements which simply show Paypal as the legitimate method of income.

The level of income declared to HMRC and therefore tax liabilities are your own concern, however this route as suggested does allow you to continue with the old NI contributions, which can be very important as one approaches retirement.

CS

In the trading what i see thread… just search paypal on the forum!

[PDC]

Before you make any 'big' changes I would try and hold off a month or two and see what comes of the Gambling Review that is due before the end of the year but sounds like it is being pushed into January. All these checks stem from that review and trying to ward off any bigger changes by showing how "responsible" these companies are without a requirement for legislation.

The changes could be much less than feared and therefore the gambling companies are most likely going to then ease off the restrictions/requirements in time, may be about what they anticipate and current checks remain or it could be far worse and the checks become far more stringent and what you do now to mitigate the current requirements becomes a waste of time.

It should only be a few more weeks so I would try and hold tight before making any major work for yourself until the picture becomes a lot clearer with the publication of the white paper.

[jamesedwards]

I've said this before, but by going the sole trader route (free Starling business and personal accounts, BTW) and paying yourself by withdrawing profits to Paypal then Paypal to business account and then business account to personal account, there is no almost zero negative impact on one's credit score, other than 'employed' being considered safer than 'self employed' for lending purposes.

The worst that happens with any credit application is the lenders do an 'open banking' check of income into personal, or you can usually provide 3 months' worth of business banking statements which simply show Paypal as the legitimate method of income.

The level of income declared to HMRC and therefore tax liabilities are your own concern, however this route as suggested does allow you to continue with the old NI contributions, which can be very important as one approaches retirement.

CS

In the trading what i see thread… just search paypal on the forum!

Thanks, but unless I have misunderstood, this is more about keeping a good credit record and applying for credit isn't it? It seems I need to demonstrate employment income through payslips and a P60.

[jamesedwards]

Before you make any 'big' changes I would try and hold off a month or two and see what comes of the Gambling Review that is due before the end of the year but sounds like it is being pushed into January. All these checks stem from that review and trying to ward off any bigger changes by showing how "responsible" these companies are without a requirement for legislation.

The changes could be much less than feared and therefore the gambling companies are most likely going to then ease off the restrictions/requirements in time, may be about what they anticipate and current checks remain or it could be far worse and the checks become far more stringent and what you do now to mitigate the current requirements becomes a waste of time.

It should only be a few more weeks so I would try and hold tight before making any major work for yourself until the picture becomes a lot clearer with the publication of the white paper.

Yes, a very good point.

[Realrocknrolla]

I've said this before, but by going the sole trader route (free Starling business and personal accounts, BTW) and paying yourself by withdrawing profits to Paypal then Paypal to business account and then business account to personal account, there is no almost zero negative impact on one's credit score, other than 'employed' being considered safer than 'self employed' for lending purposes.

The worst that happens with any credit application is the lenders do an 'open banking' check of income into personal, or you can usually provide 3 months' worth of business banking statements which simply show Paypal as the legitimate method of income.

The level of income declared to HMRC and therefore tax liabilities are your own concern, however this route as suggested does allow you to continue with the old NI contributions, which can be very important as one approaches retirement.

CS

In the trading what i see thread… just search paypal on the forum!

Thanks, but unless I have misunderstood, this is more about keeping a good credit record and applying for credit isn't it? It seems I need to demonstrate employment income through payslips and a P60.

Pretty sure on a previous post they explained more into what your looking for. I would ping them a DM for advice.

[ShaunWhite]

All these checks stem from that review and trying to ward off any bigger changes by showing how "responsible" these companies are without a requirement for legislation.

The 'Betfair' affordablity checks aren't a thing Betfair have much control over. Theres' an independent board allied to the regulator and Betfair have little choice but to follow their guidance if, as PDC says, they want to avoid the guidance becoming actual law. This leads to a situation where although Betfair understand our business, the oversight group who also cover gambling generally don't, and apply a very broad brush. This has been a royal pain in the arse for Betfair and they do seem to be doing their best to reinstate accounts as quickly as possible where they've clearly been flagged inappropriately. One of the Betfair AMs described the whole situation as embarrassing.

No bookie or exchange in their right mind would want to exclude customers, they're just trying to keep their nose clean to minimise the damage to their business and ours, and hopefully the spotlight will dim a little and it will be business almost as usual.

[Trader Pat]

All these checks stem from that review and trying to ward off any bigger changes by showing how "responsible" these companies are without a requirement for legislation.

The 'Betfair' affordablity checks aren't a thing Betfair have much control over. Theres' an independent board allied to the regulator and Betfair have little choice but to follow their guidance if, as PDC says, they want to avoid the guidance becoming actual law. This leads to a situation where although Betfair understand our business, the oversight group who also cover gambling generally don't, and apply a very broad brush. This has been a royal pain in the arse for Betfair and they do seem to be doing their best to reinstate accounts as quickly as possible where they've clearly been flagged inappropriately. One of the Betfair AMs described the whole situation as embarrassing.

No bookie or exchange in their right mind would want to exclude customers, they're just trying to keep their nose clean to minimise the damage to their business and ours, and hopefully the spotlight will dim a little and it will be business almost as usual.

Good point

It also doesn't help when you have high profile ex sportsmen crying about their gambling addictions

[verance]

The 'Betfair' affordablity checks aren't a thing Betfair have much control over.

Emailing the CEO has been a good option for many though

[PDC]

It also doesn't help when you have high profile ex sportsmen crying about their gambling addictions

It is all part of the current lobbying process to try and influence the current gambling review.

An article from last week that might be of interest to people on this thread:

The plot against gambling: how a powerful lobby is out to change betting forever
https://www.racingpost.com/news/insight ... ver/523758