Career in the betting industry and betfair implications

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pafcmyles
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:33 am

I’m looking at working in the betting industry in data or as a trader for major sportsbooks, but I was unclear as to what the rules are surrounding using betfair when in this industry.

If I did get a job at a sportsbook or spread betting firm, what are the implications of this? Can you back/lay on betfair or is that not allowed? I would ideally like to be able to trade on betfair still.

Anyone who works/has worked in the industry able to share their experience?
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Dallas
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Most will use the BF exchange anyway to hedge and lay off liabilities etc

But with regards to personal trading I they aren't going to let you do it in company time but outside they wouldn't know or be able to stop you, if you were worried just open an account in your partner or family members name
pafcmyles
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Dallas wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:57 pm
Most will use the BF exchange anyway to hedge and lay off liabilities etc

But with regards to personal trading I they aren't going to let you do it in company time but outside they wouldn't know or be able to stop you, if you were worried just open an account in your partner or family members name
I’ve heard about a waiver that means you cannot place bets if you work in the trading dept at a certain sportsbook. But I don’t see why that particular company would choose to create this waiver unless it was industry wide legislation.

Must admit I was surprised there was such a thing but thats what I’ve been told by someone who works in one of these head offices.
Archery1969
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When / if you go for an interview at a sportsbook / company ask them about placing personal bets/trades outside of office working hours and see what they say.

I suspect some will say its fine while others might make you sign something meaning you cannot.

But as Dallas said, if they do or dont just open an account in someone else's name and away you go. Having said that, slightly different but I think I am right in saying that a footballer got done for betting on football games using his brothers account. Alhough, how they found out I have no idea.
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ShaunWhite
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As others say the problem isn't Betfair it's proving to your employer you haven't used ANY of their intelectual copyright, when I was in the city there was a clause that said anything I conceived of 247 belonged to them and I was just in IT let alone the quant team. . Total brain ownership is part of the reason the wages are good.

You can always swerve rules but the penalty even for the slim chance of being caught might be high so weigh up the short term gains vs the long term prospects.
pafcmyles
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:33 am

An update on this:

I was coy in my original post whilst still in the application process, but I actually had an interview today and basically they said would I still trade betfair (I was discussing it to provide examples of my experience in the industry), and I answered that I’d look to do it more as a hobby going forward.

Following on from this, they said right at the very end of the interview that laying bets is not allowed and I’d have to sign this waiver if i was offered the job.

I have since received feedback that I was unsuccessful, as although I’d fit in great they had concerns about working practises due to ‘comments made about laying bets’.

I was describing my trading earlier in the interview and the guy asked if i was backing or laying and i said ‘both’ not really thinking anything of it, but it seems that they were worried i’d not be able to leave behind betfair even if i signed this waiver…

So if anyone here is looking to work at a sportsbook, be very careful about how you speak about betfair experiences, and make sure you convince the employers that you won’t be placing a lay bet ever again.
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ShaunWhite
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Instead of laying one you can just back all the others so I can't see the issue. If they want bet savvy people then they'll struggle to find one who does bet.

Unfortunate about the job but you might have dodged a bullet too so don't be too down. 👍.
foxwood
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pafcmyles wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:20 pm
I have since received feedback that I was unsuccessful, as although I’d fit in great they had concerns about working practises due to ‘comments made about laying bets’.
Seems weird to me - surely running a sportsbook is all about being able to lay to value and make a market - and then add a significant overround.

Sounds like they didn't understand "trading" - maybe that was a lucky break - at least you know more what others might not like to see on your cv. Good luck next time :)
pafcmyles
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:33 am

Thanks for your replies - I agree it seems weird. I left the interview this morning and had a weird feeling about it all, so created this thread. I’m hoping to hear from people at other companies who can provide alternate experiences.

Its such a big name in the industry and i’m still just feeling surprised and confused. They took a lot of interest in what i was doing on betfair, only to shoot this at me right at the end of the interview after i’d asked unrelated questions. Then I got the rejection email only a few hours later.

It seems like they felt like I knew too much - maybe they have been stung in the past? Especially with working from home leaving people open to do a lot more questionable things with data.
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xtrader16
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If you are able to odds compile at a professional level why not set up your own service and sell it on Twitter.
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ShaunWhite
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pafcmyles wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 pm
Thanks for your replies - I agree it seems weird.
What was the actual role? Coding, analytics, testing? There's often Chinese walls within the fund management industry (also betting) that means no individual actually knows the whole strategy (except a very few) even models can be developed on simulated fundamentals and markets. They aren't dumb enough for someone to walk out with the whole picture. I used to have to allocate the development of various elements to different team members.
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gazuty
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Location: Green land :)

The move from cash to electronic money is I think one of the most profound changes in my life time and the full implications (good or bad and in between) won’t be realised for decades.
pafcmyles
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:30 pm
pafcmyles wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 pm
Thanks for your replies - I agree it seems weird.
What was the actual role? Coding, analytics, testing? There's often Chinese walls within the fund management industry (also betting) that means no individual actually knows the whole strategy (except a very few) even models can be developed on simulated fundamentals and markets. They aren't dumb enough for someone to walk out with the whole picture. I used to have to allocate the development of various elements to different team members.
I had applied for a sports trader role, but was advised to go for a trading data services operator role to begin with and work up the company from there (due to lack of experience within sportsbooks prior). This role would have involved creating and settling many markets but I don’t see how anyone would obtain much ‘inside information’ in this level of role, making me even more surprised by the whole waiver situation. I would have just been a foot soldier doing simple tasks day to day to begin with a view to progress in the industry.

I’m starting to think now that the hiring managers in this part of the company may know less about betting than I had imagined, and the very mention of betfair and lay bets only relates to their experience of signing the waiver ie red flag
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ShaunWhite
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pafcmyles wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 am

I’m starting to think now that the hiring managers in this part of the company may know less about betting than I had imagined.
Or they knew something about the requirements of the role you didn't?

As I've said I only know the investment world not sports trading firms, but the role "sports trader" is a bit confusing to me. A stocks and shares 'trader" is a trained monkey just executing the wishes of the fund manager at target prices, they're primary role is keeping brokers sweet with long lunches. It's why most of the traders were gobby ex-barrowboys and the fund managers are the smart ones with the right school tie. But' Sports trader" as you describe it seems to imply some sort of autonomy? "Trading data services" sounds like a middle or back office role and tbh, they see pretty much everything so do poses a risk when it comes to leaks.

Generally though getting your foot in the door is all that matters, I accepted the most junior role going and then just worked my balls off for 20yrs, by the time I left I was global head of development. If the role is making tea or just being in the post room, just take it and if you're any good you'll get pushed through the ranks..... next time.
pafcmyles
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:33 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:24 pm
pafcmyles wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:20 am

I’m starting to think now that the hiring managers in this part of the company may know less about betting than I had imagined.
Or they knew something about the requirements of the role you didn't?

As I've said I only know the investment world not sports trading firms, but the role "sports trader" is a bit confusing to me. A stocks and shares 'trader" is a trained monkey just executing the wishes of the fund manager at target prices, they're primary role is keeping brokers sweet with long lunches. It's why most of the traders were gobby ex-barrowboys and the fund managers are the smart ones with the right school tie. But' Sports trader" as you describe it seems to imply some sort of autonomy? "Trading data services" sounds like a middle or back office role and tbh, they see pretty much everything so do poses a risk when it comes to leaks.

Generally though getting your foot in the door is all that matters, I accepted the most junior role going and then just worked my balls off for 20yrs, by the time I left I was global head of development. If the role is making tea or just being in the post room, just take it and if you're any good you'll get pushed through the ranks..... next time.
Thank you for your comments Shaun. I think to get my foot in the door I need to draw less from my betfair experiences and at least get to know if there is a waiver at a company in place before I get to preparing for the interview.

I asked for more feedback and clarification on everything but they didn’t really provide any answers to my queries.

Sports Trader in general at most firms involves managing the markets and making sure everything is priced correctly, making adjustments when needed and managing liabilities. Pre event and in play. You would also be flagging up any suspicious betting patterns that could detriment the business.
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