New condition: Matched bets liability

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weemac
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We can place bets individually by liability, but it would be useful both for lays and for backing at bigger prices (as I do) to have a total matched liability condition. As things stand, total bet sizes can get very lopsided as odds swing around violently, especially at bigger prices.
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Dallas
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You could do this already by storing the value of the P/L of a selection that you are not trading/would have the greatest liability ie, the outsider
Then add a Stored Value condition to your lay rule to test the loss does not exceed the amount you are comfortable with
weemac
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It's not about P/L - it's about desired bet sizing. I don't mind backing £100 at odds of 40, but at odds of 270 £100 is a whole different ball game in terms of market impact, among other things. Allowing for a total liability of £4,000 solves the problem. £100 bet placed at 40; £15 bet at 270, with gradations in between as the odds move around.. Similar applies to all drip-fed or iceberged lays.
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Dallas
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weemac wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:34 pm
It's not about P/L - it's about desired bet sizing. I don't mind backing £100 at odds of 40, but at odds of 270 £100 is a whole different ball game in terms of market impact, among other things. Allowing for a total liability of £4,000 solves the problem. £100 bet placed at 40; £15 bet at 270, with gradations in between as the odds move around.. Similar applies to all drip-fed or iceberged lays.
Ah ok so you want to check the bet you are about to place is within a liability but be able to use a fixed stake?

I'm assuming you aren't therefore also betting at a fixed price and instead using best market price, 2nd best market price etc?
The problem with that is the condition would have no way of knowing what that would be and the liability you'd be taking on prior to the bet being matched.

You should still be able to do it with stored values though, so if placing a bet at 2nd best lay price, you'd need to continually store the value of that 2nd best lay price, then add another stored value to minus 1 from that
then another to multiple by the max liability you want to use

That will produce a stored value with the liability of the 2nd best lay price
Your lay rule could then test that stored value before placing the bet

Edit; I've since added an example here with downloadable files that will calculate and place bets the required bets to achieve your pre-set max liability
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=23981
weemac
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Dallas wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:43 pm
weemac wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:34 pm
It's not about P/L - it's about desired bet sizing. I don't mind backing £100 at odds of 40, but at odds of 270 £100 is a whole different ball game in terms of market impact, among other things. Allowing for a total liability of £4,000 solves the problem. £100 bet placed at 40; £15 bet at 270, with gradations in between as the odds move around.. Similar applies to all drip-fed or iceberged lays.
Ah ok so you want to check the bet you are about to place is within a liability but be able to use a fixed stake?
Thanks Dallas, but no - it's the total matched bets liability I'm after. The info is readily available within the system, but it isn't currently provided for in a totalled matched amount. Only matched bet amounts i.e. stakes are currently allowed for.

In my £100 bet example above, we could use the condition to keep backing if £4,000 liability is not reached (e.g. only £36 is matched at average of 87, so we need to keep backing), or to stop when it is reached (e.g. £66 is matched at average of 60).

It's just a new condition identical to the existing 'matched bets amount' condition, except that this new one measures matched liability; not stakes. In other words, change the word 'amount(s)' to 'liability' in the new condition (see screenshot).

I presume it was just an oversight that when 'place bet by liability' was introduced, no allowance was made for dealing with these in a totalled manner.
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sionascaig
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There is an approximate work around for this...

Basically set up a rule that captured VWAP, say every second & set "Liability" for the current selection to (VWAP-1) * "Net Stake of a selection" (in the same rule)

You can then condition the selections "Liability" against a MaxLiability that you set up earlier...

The odds I've been running this on are typically between 8 at low end & 120 at high and its been well within acceptable limits..

(am assuming you are placing Liability bets)
weemac
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:16 pm

sionascaig wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:15 pm
There is an approximate work around for this...

Basically set up a rule that captured VWAP, say every second & set "Liability" for the current selection to (VWAP-1) * "Net Stake of a selection" (in the same rule)

You can then condition the selections "Liability" against a MaxLiability that you set up earlier...

The odds I've been running this on are typically between 8 at low end & 120 at high and its been well within acceptable limits..

(am assuming you are placing Liability bets)
That seems a pretty good workaround, thanks.

I'm hoping that the boffins at BA will be able to pretty much copy and adjust an existing condition rather than have users creating workarounds. Most of my journey through automation has involved thinking up workarounds until BA initiates the solutions within the programme, which, to their credit, they have done in every situation I've encountered.
sionascaig
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Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:38 am

weemac wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:25 pm
sionascaig wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 9:15 pm
There is an approximate work around for this...

Basically set up a rule that captured VWAP, say every second & set "Liability" for the current selection to (VWAP-1) * "Net Stake of a selection" (in the same rule)

You can then condition the selections "Liability" against a MaxLiability that you set up earlier...

The odds I've been running this on are typically between 8 at low end & 120 at high and its been well within acceptable limits..

(am assuming you are placing Liability bets)
That seems a pretty good workaround, thanks.

I'm hoping that the boffins at BA will be able to pretty much copy and adjust an existing condition rather than have users creating workarounds. Most of my journey through automation has involved thinking up workarounds until BA initiates the solutions within the programme, which, to their credit, they have done in every situation I've encountered.
Agree & forgot to +1 this earlier !

Using above you can also set a Stake at end (assuming you are dripping in orders pre-off) to MaxLiability - Liability via stored value stakes (another great enhancement) !
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gstar1975
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Is there a way to place a bet a custom amount of ticks above the current back price but calculate the stake using current back price?

So the liability is constantly changing with the price (and the bet is safely away from the price not to get matched) and then have Take SP always armed, that way I can get on at near to BSP automatically.
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Dallas
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gstar1975 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:50 pm
Is there a way to place a bet a custom amount of ticks above the current back price but calculate the stake using current back price?

So the liability is constantly changing with the price (and the bet is safely away from the price not to get matched) and then have Take SP always armed, that way I can get on at near to BSP automatically.
Yes, using the examples I posted a link to on the previous page, it currently calculates the liability at the best price but you can change it to place at a number of ticks outside of this and it will still use the same stake (as if it was placing at the best price) - so assuming the BSP ends up being at or near whatever that best price was that will get you your liability.
but another rule could trigger as soon as it goes in-play and submit another bet for the remaining amount so you bet up to your amount
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gstar1975
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Dallas wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:17 pm
gstar1975 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:50 pm
Is there a way to place a bet a custom amount of ticks above the current back price but calculate the stake using current back price?

So the liability is constantly changing with the price (and the bet is safely away from the price not to get matched) and then have Take SP always armed, that way I can get on at near to BSP automatically.
Yes, using the examples I posted a link to on the previous page, it currently calculates the liability at the best price but you can change it to place at a number of ticks outside of this and it will still use the same stake (as if it was placing at the best price) - so assuming the BSP ends up being at or near whatever that best price was that will get you your liability.
but another rule could trigger as soon as it goes in-play and submit another bet for the remaining amount so you bet up to your amount
Thanks Dallas. Is it easy to change for Backing? as these files are for laying.
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gstar1975
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I have tried to change the rules for Backing. I dont understand how the stake i able to change as when I hit Context stake to place the bet it just stays as the same stake at 3 ticks higher as i set it to that, but I need the stake to float 3 ticks above the current price so it never gets filled but the stake is the same as the current back price or current reverse back price and take SP automatically.
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Dallas
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gstar1975 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:28 pm
I have tried to change the rules for Backing. I dont understand how the stake i able to change as when I hit Context stake to place the bet it just stays as the same stake at 3 ticks higher as i set it to that, but I need the stake to float 3 ticks above the current price so it never gets filled but the stake is the same as the current back price or current reverse back price and take SP automatically.
You'd need to add in a few further rules for that, there's no way to simply hold the bet 3 ticks away, ie, you'd need to also store the value of the entry price, then have a cancel unmatched bets rule with a stored value condition to test the best price is less then 3 ticks below it
and then have the back bet rule able to continually re-trigger if there are no unmatched bets on the selection, and of course the take SP rule to re-trigger - but it is doable
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gstar1975
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:59 am

Dallas wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:21 pm
gstar1975 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:28 pm
I have tried to change the rules for Backing. I dont understand how the stake i able to change as when I hit Context stake to place the bet it just stays as the same stake at 3 ticks higher as i set it to that, but I need the stake to float 3 ticks above the current price so it never gets filled but the stake is the same as the current back price or current reverse back price and take SP automatically.
You'd need to add in a few further rules for that, there's no way to simply hold the bet 3 ticks away, ie, you'd need to also store the value of the entry price, then have a cancel unmatched bets rule with a stored value condition to test the best price is less then 3 ticks below it
and then have the back bet rule able to continually re-trigger if there are no unmatched bets on the selection, and of course the take SP rule to re-trigger - but it is doable
Thanks Dallas. Where can I learn how to do this myself? Are there any videos on Stored Values in terms of what I need to achieve this?

Do I need to change all of the other auto files?

I would like to use this just as an automation rule i can apply to markets and multiple runners up to around 3-4 runners.

Also I would like to do a spread entry, so to speak, to hide my intent.
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