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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Kai wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:27 am
, the harsh reality with trading is that you really are expected to fail miserably at first, and then it's vital how you react. But people can't take too much failure and disappointment or too many false dawns, it can be brutal for the mindset, most can only fail an X amount of times before it completely drains them of confidence.
Absolutely essential that having a good day or "winning" isn't judged by a positive PL. To paraphrase Confucious, a journey of 1000miles is made of individual steps so improving your RoI from - 5% to -4.5%, accepting a big loss or only trading 5 races out of 20 etc etc are all wins. They are all skills that have to be mastered and the consequence is profit, you don't find profit and then learn to be disciplined. You have to find a way to lose and feel great about how it happened.

But who listens to Confucious, he doesn't even pay PC.
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Kai
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:20 pm
They are all skills that have to be mastered and the consequence is profit, you don't find profit and then learn to be disciplined.
Discipline was actually the one thing I couldn't really understand at first, the whole concept of it, could not really grasp why it was an issue for many, let alone what the solution might be. Any advice I could give to those around me maybe worked at first, until it didn't.

But have since come across this topic through various psychologists. In short I think you need more than discipline, it if requires too much focus then you may win many battles but will eventually lose that war, I think you have to enjoy it and not fight it.
smallplayer
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:30 am

You have to find a way to lose and feel great about how it happened.
I think you have to enjoy it and not fight it.
pretty much sums it up...
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

I spoke of having discipline but I actually meant learning to do the job, ie taking loses, being diligent etc. I don't actually think it's posible to change your personality type in any significant way. Add to that the fact that trading appeals to gamblers who don't exactly have a reputation for being level headed on the whole, and the result is a high level of failure. The best "traders" I know didn't start out as gamblers and often don't have any real interstest in sport either which might cloud their judgement. I don't think that's a coincidence.
baobabul1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

Did anyone trade yesterday s races ? I thought there were huge swings and i was definetly not ready for that.i only just got used to more stable markets up until yesterday when that was a bit too much information for me.luckily i didn t get out of trades just because they were moving so much.anyone else have any thoughts on these kind of markets ? Why some days are like that? What type of races atract this kind of behaviour ?
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

baobabul1 wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:09 am
Did anyone trade yesterday s races ? I thought there were huge swings and i was definetly not ready for that.i only just got used to more stable markets up until yesterday when that was a bit too much information for me.luckily i didn t get out of trades just because they were moving so much.anyone else have any thoughts on these kind of markets ? Why some days are like that? What type of races atract this kind of behaviour ?
Low volume coupled with high liquidity makes the price more volatile. Ie if there isn't much money around then bets of just a few hundred can move the price several ticks. The answer is just to stake smaller so you have the same pl for say 5 tick moves as you would have normally for a 2 tick move. Or, skip it altogether, there's 10000 races a year so if a race doesn't feel like what you're comfortable with then just wait for the next one. But dropping your stake is the way to take the stress out of being in a twitchy market.
baobabul1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

At the moment ,i am going through all races with 2 £ stake just to get a feel for it. I am not too bothered if i lose few pennies as this is my plan to know what to expect. But i don t really understand what you mean by low volume coupled with high liquidity.what tells you where is low volume ? Maybe it s a silly question but i don t understand it.is the low volume,the amount of money already matched ?
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Volume is the amount of money waiting unmatched, liquidity is how much money is being transacted. Otherwise known as traded volume. And Volatility = Liquidity / AvailableVolume.

The absolute extremes would be Cheltenham with 100k each side and only £10/sec moving. Or a wet Wednesday in Wolverhampton with no money around and big bets going in. Have a fiver if its barely moving or 50p if its crazy and you can't resist getting involved ;)

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baobabul1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

I see yes.so when i open a race and it has 7 min left til the off,what tells me if it was high or low liquidity before i turned up to it.money waiting i understand where i look. Just as i was getting confortable with those races when there are no masive swings,i get into this..
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

baobabul1 wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:52 pm
I see yes.so when i open a race and it has 7 min left til the off,what tells me if it was high or low liquidity before i turned up to it.money waiting i understand where i look. Just as i was getting confortable with those races when there are no masive swings,i get into this..
I'm not a great manual trader so those that are might say different. A jagged price chart might be a clue but my take is that what happened before isn't as interesting as what you'll learn sitting on your hands for 2mins and just watching to get a feel for what's going on before you put your hard earned money down. It's easier to add money if it turns out to be calm than take it out of its not.

I'd set your default to £1. Then think does this feel like a 1 2 or 3 click market?
baobabul1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

So from what i understand,trading is entering the market and then manage your position the best you can. And don t asume that you know where the price is going,just have a feel for it but don t attach yourself to it too much.let go if you were wrong.is this right ?
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Imo that's how it's done. But it's also a balance with being pushed around by the market which is as bad as being stubborn about being right. Only my way, but I liked to take a little of my money out once it was showing a profit. That line beween profit and loss moves a few more ticks away and you can breath a bit.

The same sort of proactive trading happens when you're automating, some strategies repeatedly look at the market deciding whether to buy/hold/or sell and it doesn't consider the decision it made on the last cycle...... Then at the end tidy up with a hedge if there's anything unbalanced left. It never really opens and closes, it's just bet bet bet bet, and hedge. Making sure one side or the other doesn't go over maximum liability. Maybe £1 per bet with a max of £5.

This is way beyond my pay grade though baobabul, hopefully someone else will help when your questions get harder 👍
baobabul1
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:42 pm

Tha ks for your reply.everything helps.i think i will stick to minimum stakes and just keep watching all of them,no matter what liquidity.i also agree with the fact that you need to take some money out once it is showing profit.i like the much larger space is giving you. Good luck to you too !
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