Pressure getting to me

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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eightbo
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:19 pm
Location: Malta / Australia

Low on capital and the bills are creeping up. I feel it's affecting my trading decisions and I'm struggling to trade profitably now (only slightly up in Aug).

I know I can get back into the swing of things if I can find it inside me to become more selective but I just can't stop overtrading and it's crushing my soul trying so hard yet backpedaling.
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to75ne
Posts: 2413
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:37 pm

then stop and think what is important to you.

you really dont need your bills getting out of hand, that will just put unnecessary pressure on you.

the frequency (and quality) of the evening racing will soon get much less, and the markets will start behaving different as the change from flat/summer jumps starts to turn into the winter all weather and nat hunt season, so not a bad time to stop and take a break to re-think about what your doing.

" I just can't stop overtrading and it's crushing my soul trying so hard yet backpedaling"

sounds to me you need a break from trading for a while.

best of luck.
iambic_pentameter
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 pm

I'll say this - it takes a lot of courage to admit that you are struggling at the moment but the fact you recognise this, is a sign that you have a decent level of self-awareness.

Trading will always be there; go back to just trading evening and weekends but rather than do it for the profits, focus on the process. That way, you'll find your trading mojo again - and I'm pretty sure I've seen videos you've posted on YouTube so I know you can do it!

Some good advice from to75ne and we all know that if you trade with 'scared money' you could end up in a real pickle.

Best of luck

Iambic
newaustralian
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:40 am

Some problem from Australia. For years using arbitrage, free bets etc. I have got accustomed to a regular daily profit. However due to being restrict from most of the agencies (7 ) my daily profit has dried up so have started to trade , very unsuccessfully. Thus, I realised that I was starting to increase the risk in my betting. Solution for me is to restrict my betting in August to two minor days a week and spend more time paper trading. It is working!! (By the way nothing to do with this topic if somebody can help to pushing me in the right direction of predicting price movement it would be appreciated.)
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johnsheppard
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:00 am
Location: Cairns Australia

Perhaps working on automation is an avenue? That may be perhaps a different kind of pressure tho. They do say a change is as good as a holiday...

Psychologically, I think catastrophising is what causes most stress. If you are worried about bills, you are worried about your golden lifestyle coming to an end. Is it really that bad having a 9 to 5? Im not really qualified to comment on these things. Just a passing thought.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

You seem to trade everything that moves 247, uk horses & dogs, us & aus races, tennis, 2 flys crawling up a wall etc etc. Try and get some structure in your life (maybe just 35/40 hrs trading max) and focus on just one or two things. Work smarter, not harder and don't try and push it and be a hero.

But I will say that there's no shame in stepping back and regrouping, only respect. It's f'kin hard to do (I did it in 06) but you'll be a bigger man for doing it than if you're weak, and you end up in the shit. That takes a lot of wiping off believe me. Besides, getting a 9 to 5 where they pay your bills whether you work hard or not, or go off sick, or spend all day looking at the office totty ...and then having every evening and weekend to try and top up your wages by no pressure trading is pretty damn sweet really. With hindsight some of the easiest money and best times I ever had was working for 'the man' so it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway you wouldn't be quitting trading, you'd be starting a second plate spinning. I don't know how old you are but I'd guess you're too young just to have just one iron in the fire, you need to be hustlin' everyday like Rick Ross because you never know which horse is going to come in for you.
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wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3205
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

If you're trading to pay your bills each month and you have to win a set amount each month to do so, that's a lot of pressure right there.

One useful piece of advice I've read from different sources over the years is the allocate at least 6 months living expenses (ideally a year) and then use the remaining bank to trade/invest/gamble with. It might take time to build up to this, but the time can be used to review old data, paper trade new ideas and before you know it, you can proceed with a little less pressure than before.

Here are a few attachments that may (or may not) help including some Rudyard Kipling to finish with.

schema.GIF

SchAdv.GIF

RKipling.GIF
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wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3205
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

The last Rudyard Kipling verse....

Rkip2.GIF
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Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

To offer an alternative point of view, a little bit of pressure is not necessarily a bad thing even though it may feel like it. You're only 26, pressure may give you a unique opportunity to find out more about yourself, to learn what's really important to you and what it is you want from trading and life in general. Trading as a profession in general has a habit of testing you in every imaginable way, imagine all the benefits that you could potentially get if you pass some of these tests with flying colors. It can strengthen your character and raise your confidence levels, some of the worlds richest people came from very humble beginnings and had to endure severe hardships, it is not a coincidence.

I am very familiar with that soul-crushing feeling that you describe, at the start it seemed like the markets were impenetrable and felt like I had a 100 failed ideas, nothing worked. In my own head I've put myself under immense pressure from the start and was desperate to make trading work, otherwise in my head my life would take a different path and be completely ruined, although in reality I would just have to get an average job like everyone else but to me that equaled failure. And from the start I've realized that I cannot treat trading like a normal job, I cannot live paycheck to paycheck like everyone else does, I need to start saving from the start to cover for every eventuality (sudden loss of trading bank for whatever reason, exchange outages, loss of edge, Betfair restrictions etc).

But you're not at the start, judging by your posts you seem bright enough to make it work, you already know what your problem is, you just can't seem to help yourself because of external pressure and your mind seems fatigued and is not functioning properly. Before embarking on this trading journey I had a bunch of questions about myself and about life etc, but through trading I've been tested like never before and I've gotten all kinds of answers that I was looking for, because of trading it feels like I've finally met myself and it may sound cheesy but I've even found my own meaning of life (freedom to do what you want and enjoy). How does one go back to an average job after experiencing all that? No chance in hell.

This may or may not apply to you, but one of the most common trends that I've seen with traders in general is that soon as they get their first taste of success and consistency (which is inevitable if they spend enough time studying the markets), they get satisfied with that and they stop learning anything new and start grinding what they already know, they start thinking that finally their efforts have paid off and that they don't have to any more real work after that point. So they create this comfort zone for themselves and the comfier that zone gets the more difficult it becomes to get out of it, markets evolve and change over time so if they're sitting on a minor edge then there's a good chance that it can either weaken with time or completely dissipate.

I too must admit that I was guilty of ridiculous levels of procrastination during certain periods of comfort, and while I was busy enjoying life and indulging in various distractions a good part of my edges grew weaker and weaker until some of them completely died, I've had to tap into a different source of motivation to get going again. I could name many examples of traders around me that lost their edge and I've learned from their mistakes, Peter must have met hundreds of them over the years! To me it makes zero sense to chill once you make that first big breakthrough, I now see it more as a signal to really start pushing in this direction, a far better edge or more of them could lurk just around the corner, otherwise you're just selling yourself short.

Don't know what sports you're trading but you really need your bread and butter that you can always rely on, before you start expanding into different markets. This may be an unpopular opinion but I think there's a lot of people around that already have more than enough knowledge to be comfortably profitable on the markets, but there's just something holding them back from executing on that knowledge, be it pressure or fear etc. They feel like they don't know enough so they spend time hoarding more knowledge and data and only end up getting severe diminishing returns, instead of trying to work out what it is that is holding them back and working on developing that missing mental skill or whatever it is.

Best of luck, this below is my favorite quote about pressure in case you haven't seen it.

Image
TipTopTrader
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Stick to your bread and butter for a while AUS,US ,NZ, and the dogs. Get your mojo back.
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Derek27
Posts: 23475
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

eightbo wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:06 pm
Low on capital and the bills are creeping up. I feel it's affecting my trading decisions and I'm struggling to trade profitably now (only slightly up in Aug).

I know I can get back into the swing of things if I can find it inside me to become more selective but I just can't stop overtrading and it's crushing my soul trying so hard yet backpedaling.
Strikes me that you're a talented trader that's been making a few avoidable mistakes, ie, overtrading. I've been there myself a few times and know how frustrating it is when a trade goes against you, close for a loss only to find that the price bounced in the right direction and a smaller trade would have allowed me to ride the storm. Perhaps your main focus could be getting the staking right or spending a few seconds more planing your opening stake?

I keep a diary of all my losses over a certain amount and categorise a reason for each one so I can review it periodically. Perhaps a similar approach may help. Best of luck.
TipTopTrader
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Kai wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:17 pm
To offer an alternative point of view, a little bit of pressure is not necessarily a bad thing even though it may feel like it. You're only 26, pressure may give you a unique opportunity to find out more about yourself, to learn what's really important to you and what it is you want from trading and life in general. Trading as a profession in general has a habit of testing you in every imaginable way, imagine all the benefits that you could potentially get if you pass some of these tests with flying colors. It can strengthen your character and raise your confidence levels, some of the worlds richest people came from very humble beginnings and had to endure severe hardships, it is not a coincidence.

I am very familiar with that soul-crushing feeling that you describe, at the start it seemed like the markets were impenetrable and felt like I had a 100 failed ideas, nothing worked. In my own head I've put myself under immense pressure from the start and was desperate to make trading work, otherwise in my head my life would take a different path and be completely ruined, although in reality I would just have to get an average job like everyone else but to me that equaled failure. And from the start I've realized that I cannot treat trading like a normal job, I cannot live paycheck to paycheck like everyone else does, I need to start saving from the start to cover for every eventuality (sudden loss of trading bank for whatever reason, exchange outages, loss of edge, Betfair restrictions etc).

But you're not at the start, judging by your posts you seem bright enough to make it work, you already know what your problem is, you just can't seem to help yourself because of external pressure and your mind seems fatigued and is not functioning properly. Before embarking on this trading journey I had a bunch of questions about myself and about life etc, but through trading I've been tested like never before and I've gotten all kinds of answers that I was looking for, because of trading it feels like I've finally met myself and it may sound cheesy but I've even found my own meaning of life (freedom to do what you want and enjoy). How does one go back to an average job after experiencing all that? No chance in hell.

This may or may not apply to you, but one of the most common trends that I've seen with traders in general is that soon as they get their first taste of success and consistency (which is inevitable if they spend enough time studying the markets), they get satisfied with that and they stop learning anything new and start grinding what they already know, they start thinking that finally their efforts have paid off and that they don't have to any more real work after that point. So they create this comfort zone for themselves and the comfier that zone gets the more difficult it becomes to get out of it, markets evolve and change over time so if they're sitting on a minor edge then there's a good chance that it can either weaken with time or completely dissipate.

I too must admit that I was guilty of ridiculous levels of procrastination during certain periods of comfort, and while I was busy enjoying life and indulging in various distractions a good part of my edges grew weaker and weaker until some of them completely died, I've had to tap into a different source of motivation to get going again. I could name many examples of traders around me that lost their edge and I've learned from their mistakes, Peter must have met hundreds of them over the years! To me it makes zero sense to chill once you make that first big breakthrough, I now see it more as a signal to really start pushing in this direction, a far better edge or more of them could lurk just around the corner, otherwise you're just selling yourself short.

Don't know what sports you're trading but you really need your bread and butter that you can always rely on, before you start expanding into different markets. This may be an unpopular opinion but I think there's a lot of people around that already have more than enough knowledge to be comfortably profitable on the markets, but there's just something holding them back from executing on that knowledge, be it pressure or fear etc. They feel like they don't know enough so they spend time hoarding more knowledge and data and only end up getting severe diminishing returns, instead of trying to work out what it is that is holding them back and working on developing that missing mental skill or whatever it is.

Best of luck, this below is my favorite quote about pressure in case you haven't seen it.

Image
Great insight Kai,

On what it takes to be a long term profitable trader.
eightbo
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:19 pm
Location: Malta / Australia

Appreciate the posts and to hear some of your views. My train of thoughts went down a negative rabbit hole last night which is quite rare for me. I think I needed to vent the feelings I had and at the same time looking for some sort of sympathy after a painful day (didn't even really lose much except my time).

After posting I really went for it on a run and feeling refreshed after a nap I traded a few mkts in the night and seemed to be able to display patience as well as decent trade mgmt again (phew). Grew the bank steadily and after another nap I managed to keep the momentum rolling whilst the sun was out, including having one of my best racing sessions in recent times, feeling really in tune with the markets and again able to wait for a few things to stack up in my favour before pulling the trigger. Gave a little back in the eve as I began to get reckless but nothing too crazy.
Confidence welcomingly restored. I won't be taking a break but as Shaun suggested I'm going to cut down a little on the hours and as a few of you said I'll be focusing on developing my bread & butter.

Yeah I've got a detailed diary Derek. I had a key breakthrough fairly recently regarding my "big mistakes" and it's really showing in my results (faaaaaar fewer spikes to the downside in the P&L), and I'm grateful I know exactly what to be working on regarding the minor stuff. I still struggle every now and can end up logging some pretty shocking trades (usually walking away is the right answer for those times; one of the minor skills I'm developing) but I'm quite happy taking that kind of drawdown as it's fully deserved and it beats the alternative (occasional gambling to chase a bad day) by a country mile.

In a similar theme to Kai's post, someone shared a proverb with me yesterday — "Necessity is a mother of all inventions". I already decided a long time ago that I was going to make it or 'break it'. I've found the mind tends to find a way when you give it no other option and similarly half-asses things when you know you've got a plan B to fall back on. I'm not completely insane, I know that if the time comes I'll rewrite plan A if I need to but fortunately no immediate danger just yet.

I'll come back to this thread next month and update on progress for those interested.
!remindme "f=36&t=19437" "How I'm getting on:" "23/09/2019 22:00:00"
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mcgoo
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:30 pm

Please do mate. The BE grind of death has me head-bashing a wall :) :oops: ..be nice to see how you get on and hearing other's stories helps.All the best
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PDC
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:52 pm

Something I like to do is to set yourself a target to aim for, for example say you like gaming, set yourself the target of making £x (be reasonable) and when you achieve it reward yourself with a new game or something.

I found that when I had that target I would focus a lot more and trade better. Rather than having the general target of say being profitable.

Might be worth considering
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