Deliberate Practice; Overtrading

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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Kai
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:59 pm
personally I disagree.

The problem with deliberate practise is that edges/rules change over time. But unfortunately, I don't have an answer - hence why I queried Eight - I bl00dy wish edges never change, but unfortunately they do!!
Edges may change, especially minor ones, but the markets never do, and that's the most important thing here that you should be focusing on. I think it's fairly obvious from your recent posts that you fear change in general but change can be good too, we are creatures of habit and we don't ever want things to change but unfortunately change is inevitable, otherwise we'd still be riding horses to work every day :mrgreen: Change is everywhere and we can't escape it, even my username Kai literally means change in Japanese language.

If you take a look at the infamous Jesse Livermore and some of his best trading rules and quotes, that was a man who was trading the markets a 100 years ago! Have a look at how many of those still perfectly apply to the sports markets that we're trading today. https://www.marcellagerwerf.com/jesse-livermore-quotes/

I understand your urgent need to find answers asap, but maybe you would get better quality feedback on your own trading approaches from similar types of traders/quants if you were to open a thread specifically dedicated for that purpose where discussing such things wouldn't be considered off-topic. But also please keep in mind that if people realize that you're stubbornly ignoring most of their feedback then they will naturally be reluctant to offer more of it. Since there's not too many deeper discussions on the forum I think it's perfectly understandable that a few people may get annoyed if they see someone hijacking such threads with personal agendas and such.

The now late Stephen Hawking famously said that "intelligence is the ability to adapt to change" and I couldn't agree more. A good trader that understands the markets he is trading should never run out of edges no matter how they change and evolve over time. Minor edges and minor traders may come and go but big edges and big traders are here to stay and they will forever have something to trade on a daily basis, that is an absolute guarantee.

For example have a look at the football in-play markets and the VAR changes to it along with random delay increases, those recent changes are beyond annoying for a higher frequency trader like myself and that may influence my approach to trade more around time decay than trading around goals in the future. Tennis in-play markets are an even better example with many market making traders and noise traders complaining last few years due to lack of liquidity and overall market noise, it is very clear that if they do not adapt and change and learn new skills that they will quite possibly die out.

To go back on topic of deliberate practice, I see this thread more as a continuation of the process that Eightbo started a few threads ago once he realized that he needed to change/tweak his approach to maintain and strengthen his edge over the market. I think that's brilliant and I encourage it, like Steve Burns said, you need to have a process, any process, to ensure actual progress is being made in the right direction. Your process may be more or less efficient but I think it doesn't matter too much in the end as long as it's the right process, no matter how slow a person is moving in the right direction he should eventually get where he wants to.

I think these threads more than anything else highlight the importance of having a process in general, which many people completely lack. Once I became fully aware of the immense depth of the markets I knew no matter what that it was going to take a long time to get where I want to get. One potential shortcut that I really liked came about when I was reading about the concept of Accelerated Learning, I tried to borrow a few elements from it and tailor them into an accelerated learning process that suited my own needs. In short I needed to figure out through trial and error which learning process and practice method produces results and creates progress and which one doesn't. For me the most important thing was to stay flexible with the plan in general, the plan that you write for yourself today may need to be completely rewritten or tweaked tomorrow, based on the feedback/progress/flaws that you've had on this day and so on. Likewise, a trading/practice plan that you first create can easily become completely obsolete a week or 3 later, if you make enough progress and during that time find a better edge or something that requires a different skill to the one you've practiced so far, so it's always good to stay flexible and re-evaluate things when needed.
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ruthlessimon
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Kai wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:08 pm
Since there's not too many deeper discussions on the forum
That was my genuine intention - I love driving deep discussion (maybe this was too deep, or I missed the ball - perhaps the latter) :) - my initial posts are heavily influenced by the following article (which believes deliberate practice only accounts for 1%, maybe less in entrepreneurship/trading) - that's what i was trying to get across (with an example (i.e. a strategy I'm working on atm - demonstrating the flaws of delb. practice - which people might not be aware of)):

https://www.fransjohansson.com/press-jl ... -hour-rule

Imo it's good for people to see both sides
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ShaunWhite
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:33 pm
my initial posts are heavily influenced by the following article (which believes deliberate practice only accounts for 1%, maybe less in entrepreneurship/trading)
https://www.fransjohansson.com/press-jl ... -hour-rule
That's if you classify the physical action of trading as a profession (like an accountant or an architect), I always saw trading the ladder as much more akin to playing a video game, and that's 26% difference :) The constant arrival of info on the right-hand side of charts is not unlike the price landscape and foes arriving on a horizonal scroller like Defender. After a while you realise the terrain approaching is familiar sections, just presented in a different sequence each time you play.
defender1.jpg
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Vovsen
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I love driving deep discussion
Reminds me of the acronym:

D etail
E stimate
E mergent
P riority

D ependant
I nsure
V alue
E ffort
DEEPDIVE.PNG

Best thread ever. 100% for deliberate practice after realising automation trader+IT developer teams working with SAFe Agile and lean - know thy enemy (and steal his stuff)
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SweetLyrics
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There is a fine line between deep discussion and what trader Ed Seykota calls 'mathturbation'.

Is this 'deep discussion' going to make you any money, or is it a form of procrastination/indulgence/ego stroking?
ruthlessimon wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:33 pm
That was my genuine intention - I love driving deep discussion (maybe this was too deep, or I missed the ball - perhaps the latter) :) - my initial posts are heavily influenced by the following article (which believes deliberate practice only accounts for 1%, maybe less in entrepreneurship/trading) - that's what i was trying to get across (with an example (i.e. a strategy I'm working on atm - demonstrating the flaws of delb. practice - which people might not be aware of)):

https://www.fransjohansson.com/press-jl ... -hour-rule

Imo it's good for people to see both sides
jamesg46
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Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

SweetLyrics wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:03 pm
There is a fine line between deep discussion and what trader Ed Seykota calls 'mathturbation'.

Is this 'deep discussion' going to make you any money, or is it a form of procrastination/indulgence/ego stroking?
ruthlessimon wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:33 pm
That was my genuine intention - I love driving deep discussion (maybe this was too deep, or I missed the ball - perhaps the latter) :) - my initial posts are heavily influenced by the following article (which believes deliberate practice only accounts for 1%, maybe less in entrepreneurship/trading) - that's what i was trying to get across (with an example (i.e. a strategy I'm working on atm - demonstrating the flaws of delb. practice - which people might not be aware of)):

https://www.fransjohansson.com/press-jl ... -hour-rule

Imo it's good for people to see both sides
It seems that ego stroking is most fitting. We keep heading back in to the direction of the original topic and then somebody keeps bringing it back to their reason for being right. I noticed a certain football thread that got ruined by people deviating from the topic and into their personal opinions.... I'm no bigot & at first, imo it helped to push the conversation forward but now it's just going too far and turning into who's right or wrong.
spreadbetting
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jamesg46 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:22 pm


It seems that ego stroking is most fitting. We keep heading back in to the direction of the original topic and then somebody keeps bringing it back to their reason for being right. I noticed a certain football thread that got ruined by people deviating from the topic and into their personal opinions.... I'm no bigot & at first, imo it helped to push the conversation forward but now it's just going too far and turning into who's right or wrong.
Their pnl's will tell them who's right ;)
jamesg46
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spreadbetting wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:53 pm
jamesg46 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:22 pm


It seems that ego stroking is most fitting. We keep heading back in to the direction of the original topic and then somebody keeps bringing it back to their reason for being right. I noticed a certain football thread that got ruined by people deviating from the topic and into their personal opinions.... I'm no bigot & at first, imo it helped to push the conversation forward but now it's just going too far and turning into who's right or wrong.
Their pnl's will tell them who's right ;)
I have an idea, we should start a thread called "the ring" and whenever a topic goes tits up the people involved should go to the ring & debate it out... I'd imagine it would chuck up some interesting points along the way. Being a gentleman is the only rule.
stueytrader
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eightbo wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:36 pm

I should add that what we're deliberately practicing needs to be the 'correct technique' i.e. something that's actually going to improve your trading — You can go through the discomfort of learning the precise motions of a bad tennis serve until you have it down cold but would that actually help your game? If it was the first serve you learned you'd probably even be net-disadvantaged for your efforts.
This is a key point - what exactly are we talking about 'practicing' here? Specific behaviours or trading activity? Or a wider set of rules, like your limits on number of trades?
jamesg46
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stueytrader wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:43 am
eightbo wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:36 pm

I should add that what we're deliberately practicing needs to be the 'correct technique' i.e. something that's actually going to improve your trading — You can go through the discomfort of learning the precise motions of a bad tennis serve until you have it down cold but would that actually help your game? If it was the first serve you learned you'd probably even be net-disadvantaged for your efforts.
This is a key point - what exactly are we talking about 'practicing' here? Specific behaviours or trading activity? Or a wider set of rules, like your limits on number of trades?
I think that is down to the individual but here is a decent Ted Talk & a good place to start.
https://youtu.be/tGdsOXZpyWE
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ShaunWhite
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I don't have a problem with people explaining their methods but I don't agree with blinkered critisism of other people methods. Trading isn't a one size fits all job and everyone should learn from what others do or are trying to do. In fact there was a long thread a while ago about the importance of being open minded! Given the failure rate of people round here you'd expect a little less dogma, but trying to learn from other people's point of view is out of fashion these days.

My option is of debatable market value but from the gospel according to St Peter...
Euler wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:46 pm
I just think it seems to be a typical human error to dismisses evidence and use your own frame of reference without being able to see why people are saying something else. It takes a lot of effort, time and patience to see others viewpoints and take them into account. But also, changing your mind is often seen as a weakness when in fact it can be a huge positive.
Last edited by ShaunWhite on Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ShaunWhite
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jamesg46 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:15 pm
I think that is down to the individual
+1
stueytrader
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Down to the individual is a fair take to some degree, but that just leaves it open as to whether you are choosing to practice the 'right' areas of your trading? Or even doing anything positive with your practice.

I had presumed the OP was suggesting there were some specific examples to practice?
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ruthlessimon
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jamesg46 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:15 pm
I think that is down to the individual but here is a decent Ted Talk & a good place to start.
https://youtu.be/tGdsOXZpyWE
Out of interest, what parts of that video have actively helped with your deliberate practice?

For example, I agree with the gripes she made about recency bias (but personally, I wouldn't class that as deliberate practice).
jamesg46
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:10 pm
jamesg46 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:15 pm
I think that is down to the individual but here is a decent Ted Talk & a good place to start.
https://youtu.be/tGdsOXZpyWE
Out of interest, what parts of that video have actively helped with your deliberate practice?

For example, I agree with the gripes she made about recency bias (but personally, I wouldn't class that as deliberate practice).
I suggested it as a good place to start because of 'ask what, not why' I thought it was a great point made that asking why keeps us in the rear view mirror... I dont think that there is a one size fits all way to deliberate practice and i'm also no expert, i'm here to learn too & would hope that a comment or a suggestion could help somebody who is also interested (in the topic) If this is a suggestion that i'm going off topic and being a hypocrite then i'll accept your opinion, although I did think there was some relevance.
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