When to know if it’s time to quit...

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
Mr.Teeny
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:18 am

zippus wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:19 pm
darchas wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:53 pm
I think some of the above discussion might be better off in its own thread or maybe over DM. I do think it's good that threads can go off on interesting tangents at times, but they should at least be semi-related/something that might be of use to the original poster and/or a user that might be interested in the topic.
Yeah I do agree, without wanting to be disrespectful to those that have taken the time to comment. I’m really looking for hints and tips to overcome basic human frailties, rather than a personality diagnosis.

Best way to stop chasing and blowing banks etc is to start winning. It’s a lot easier to remain disciplined and to stick to your strategy/ plan if you are winning.

The easiest way to start winning is to lower your stakes right down to a level where you can trade in and out as you please , without feeling uncomfortable if a trade starts to move against you. Then build back up from there. Building both your bank, and your confidence to up your stakes again.

The trouble with chasing and losing is that you can only feel the pain in the present. When you chase and end up losing everything it can feel as if your world has ended. It’s so bad that you swear you will never do it again. However, a few weeks down the line, when presented with another similar scenario, the pain has gone, and the temptation to chase instead of take the losses is right back with you.

The other trouble with chasing is that sometimes you win. If you were guaranteed to lose every time you chased then nobody would do it. Trouble is often you win. In fact you probably win a lot more often than you lose, however those times are easily forgot about, or sometimes even put down as being a shrewd play. Ie “ market got it wrong “, “ market was crazy” , you can almost justify not taking the loss.

But every once in a while, one bet leads to another, and when luck finally catches up with you, the bank is blown, and you are left with that empty feeling, that numb feeling you get when you do the lot in. That’s when you decide it was the wrong thing to do, and vow never to do it again.

It’s the worst feeling in the world, however, it passes. On the flip side of that, I probably shouldn’t admit it, though that feeling of relief you get when you’ve been on the chase and finally get that winner that puts you back level, that’s one of the best feelings ever !
rik
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:16 am
Location: London

you would think the hard part is judging whether a price is too high or low
apparently its this discipline nonsense
dont bet if your not at advantage its as simple as that.
i understand if you struggle to learn programming or design some complicated models but only betting to a plan and at advantage is basics and everyone that wants to be serious can do it
90% of people with this issues are just not conifdent in their edge or want it to be bigger so they add some variance hoping to get lucky
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Mr.Teeny wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:00 pm
Best way to stop chasing and blowing banks etc is to start winning. It’s a lot easier to remain disciplined and to stick to your strategy/ plan if you are winning.
Catch-22 init. You only become relaxed about losing when you know you'll get it back, but you won't get it back until you become relaxed about losing.

How about keeping a seperate tally of losses you know were your fault and those where you did your best but it just didn't work out? If the second number isn't too bad then it might give you the strength to reduce the first. But if it's crap then you're wasting your time working on 'you' and just being deluded by the "i'd be great if I didn't keep losing" fallacy.

Have you got anyone who could sit and watch you trade? Being a dick on your own is a lot easier than being a dick when someone is watching and you're talking them through it. :oops:
Anbell
Posts: 2004
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

Trader724 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:42 am
Okay, on principle it's not stupid if it works. Nothing to add.
The importance of checklists is well documented
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... hecklists/

Sticky notes are just a way of highlighting one or two or three items on a checklist.

We all hope to perform like a swiss watch, but we all have ROI leaks as well, and it helps to have a reminder to yourself that even though a particular set-up looks +ve, the pnl over time shows it is leaky, and therefore dont touch, or reduce stakes, or whatever.
User avatar
Trader724
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

A checklist makes sense when there is a lot to do and you may forget something. You don't go in-play because you forgot you don't have to do that, the reason is lack of discipline. If a sticky note helps your discipline it's ok, whatever works for you, I've seen some weirder sh*t. There are things you have to do without hesitation (for example, when driving) and things you don't have to do under any circumstances both in life and in a certain field. They are so important that there is no point in writing them down and looking at them. Do you need a sticky note to remind you not to kill someone you hate? When you are not disciplined, you humiliate yourself and maybe it is better to write a big L on a sticky note and stick it on your forehead, you will certainly not need it after a while.
User avatar
jimibt
Posts: 3641
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:42 pm
Location: Narnia

Trader724 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:23 am
... you humiliate yourself and maybe it is better to write a big L on a sticky note and stick it on your forehead, you will certainly not need it after a while.
and of course, position a decent sized mirror on your monitor, so as to always be able to see the "L" as you trade :lol:
User avatar
The Silk Run
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:53 am
Location: United Kingdom

jimibt wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:09 pm
Trader724 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:23 am
... you humiliate yourself and maybe it is better to write a big L on a sticky note and stick it on your forehead, you will certainly not need it after a while.
and of course, position a decent sized mirror on your monitor, so as to always be able to see the "L" as you trade :lol:
I like that Jim. Loox like I will have to up my game in the humour department. VERY competitive now, good variance :lol:
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

I have said it before here, but punters have some enormous pyschological hurdles to overcome when trading

As punters, we have always had a run for our money.....
If you back a horse, whether he falls at the first, or gets pipped at the post....you've had a run
If you back over 2.5 goals and it's still 0-0 after 60mins.....I've known plenty of matches go from 0 goals at 60mins to 3 at FT

However, as a trader we have to cut our losses and accept a loser before the race or match has started
It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, and it takes a huge amount of mental challanges to keep control of one's staking, emotions and discipline

This is why I disagree with the ridiculing by Trader724
To succeed in this game we all need to find ways of avoiding pitfalls and weaknesses

For some, they need to be reminded constantly.
That's not a bad thing though. It's like a person that wants to lose 6 stone in weight.....looking at horrible fat pictures of themselves is quite often a driver to never returning there
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Mr.Teeny wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:00 pm
zippus wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:19 pm
darchas wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:53 pm
I think some of the above discussion might be better off in its own thread or maybe over DM. I do think it's good that threads can go off on interesting tangents at times, but they should at least be semi-related/something that might be of use to the original poster and/or a user that might be interested in the topic.
Yeah I do agree, without wanting to be disrespectful to those that have taken the time to comment. I’m really looking for hints and tips to overcome basic human frailties, rather than a personality diagnosis.

Best way to stop chasing and blowing banks etc is to start winning. It’s a lot easier to remain disciplined and to stick to your strategy/ plan if you are winning.

The easiest way to start winning is to lower your stakes right down to a level where you can trade in and out as you please , without feeling uncomfortable if a trade starts to move against you. Then build back up from there. Building both your bank, and your confidence to up your stakes again.

The trouble with chasing and losing is that you can only feel the pain in the present. When you chase and end up losing everything it can feel as if your world has ended. It’s so bad that you swear you will never do it again. However, a few weeks down the line, when presented with another similar scenario, the pain has gone, and the temptation to chase instead of take the losses is right back with you.

The other trouble with chasing is that sometimes you win. If you were guaranteed to lose every time you chased then nobody would do it. Trouble is often you win. In fact you probably win a lot more often than you lose, however those times are easily forgot about, or sometimes even put down as being a shrewd play. Ie “ market got it wrong “, “ market was crazy” , you can almost justify not taking the loss.

But every once in a while, one bet leads to another, and when luck finally catches up with you, the bank is blown, and you are left with that empty feeling, that numb feeling you get when you do the lot in. That’s when you decide it was the wrong thing to do, and vow never to do it again.

It’s the worst feeling in the world, however, it passes. On the flip side of that, I probably shouldn’t admit it, though that feeling of relief you get when you’ve been on the chase and finally get that winner that puts you back level, that’s one of the best feelings ever !
Spot on! I can definitely relate to this.
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Trader724 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:23 am
A checklist makes sense when there is a lot to do and you may forget something. You don't go in-play because you forgot you don't have to do that, the reason is lack of discipline. If a sticky note helps your discipline it's ok, whatever works for you, I've seen some weirder sh*t. There are things you have to do without hesitation (for example, when driving) and things you don't have to do under any circumstances both in life and in a certain field. They are so important that there is no point in writing them down and looking at them. Do you need a sticky note to remind you not to kill someone you hate? When you are not disciplined, you humiliate yourself and maybe it is better to write a big L on a sticky note and stick it on your forehead, you will certainly not need it after a while.
:lol: You're bang on about the lack of discipline and the humiliation is an interesting - if not painful - idea. I'm not quite at that point but if I don't learn something from the other hints and tips, then maybe I'll give it a try.
User avatar
Trader724
Posts: 559
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

What I noticed from the start is that trading is not for scared people. I throw thousands in all directions if I know that in the long run the result will be positive and what happens in every trade does not interest me. I'm not upset after 10 losses in a row or a 30% drawdown because I know I'll make more than I lost. It's true, it's not easy to think like that, but you have to. The sooner the better.
greenmark
Posts: 4948
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:33 am
Mr.Teeny wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:00 pm
Best way to stop chasing and blowing banks etc is to start winning. It’s a lot easier to remain disciplined and to stick to your strategy/ plan if you are winning.
Catch-22 init. You only become relaxed about losing when you know you'll get it back, but you won't get it back until you become relaxed about losing.

How about keeping a seperate tally of losses you know were your fault and those where you did your best but it just didn't work out? If the second number isn't too bad then it might give you the strength to reduce the first. But if it's crap then you're wasting your time working on 'you' and just being deluded by the "i'd be great if I didn't keep losing" fallacy.

Have you got anyone who could sit and watch you trade? Being a dick on your own is a lot easier than being a dick when someone is watching and you're talking them through it. :oops:
Quite possibly the most sage thing I've read on this forum. In IT (where I was, anyway) , it's called peer review. And its simply amazing how one's faulty assumptions are exposed when you have to describe your thinking face-to-face. Realization of your error happens even before you say the words. Then it's a Doh moment.
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

rik wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:26 pm
you would think the hard part is judging whether a price is too high or low
apparently its this discipline nonsense
dont bet if your not at advantage its as simple as that.
i understand if you struggle to learn programming or design some complicated models but only betting to a plan and at advantage is basics and everyone that wants to be serious can do it
90% of people with this issues are just not conifdent in their edge or want it to be bigger so they add some variance hoping to get lucky
I'd have to agree with rik, can't simplify it much more than this. I said many times that for me the key focus should be on the edge itself while the rest should eventually fall into place.

While it's good practice to highlight the biggest mistakes to try and learn off them, it also doesn't help to constantly beat yourself up about every little mistake to torture yourself. A decent edge should allow for some margin of error, you can't fall for the misconception that good traders don't make any mistakes, that's nonsense.

Even the very best striker can't score a hat-trick every match, it's not possible, he won't get enough opportunities and when he does he won't be able to execute on them perfectly every time. Same as trading, like everyone else you have to mostly settle for your optimum performance and that's what you have to raise above the required threshold, through nothing else but practice.
User avatar
Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

zippus wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:10 pm
Now I’m not a greedy man. But I realise my corporate life will come to an end one day and am looking for something to do that will provide a reasonable income from home in the future. However, I have to accept that I’m rubbish at this.

I’ve given myself this year to try to address the above, so any thoughts would be welcome.
When to know if it's time to quit? Ideally never, but only you could answer that one, would depend on your motives among other things.

I see trading as a long-term project and a long-term investment, you're practically building a highly paid skillset that can potentially open many doors so it shouldn't happen overnight, it's very rare that you'll see some reward in the very short-term.

You may see eventual benefits from undertaking this journey even if you're not profitable in the end, but this obviously can't pay your bills. Not only is success not guaranteed here, it's unlikely as well, not for you personally but for every aspiring trader because of the nature of these ever-evolving markets.

"Looking for something to do that will provide a reasonable income from home in the future" may not exactly be the right motive if I'm perfectly honest, you may need more than that.
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Kai wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:55 pm
zippus wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:10 pm
Now I’m not a greedy man. But I realise my corporate life will come to an end one day and am looking for something to do that will provide a reasonable income from home in the future. However, I have to accept that I’m rubbish at this.

I’ve given myself this year to try to address the above, so any thoughts would be welcome.
When to know if it's time to quit? Ideally never, but only you could answer that one, would depend on your motives among other things.

I see trading as a long-term project and a long-term investment, you're practically building a highly paid skillset that can potentially open many doors so it shouldn't happen overnight, it's very rare that you'll see some reward in the very short-term.

You may see eventual benefits from undertaking this journey even if you're not profitable in the end, but this obviously can't pay your bills. Not only is success not guaranteed here, it's unlikely as well, not for you personally but for every aspiring trader because of the nature of these ever-evolving markets.

"Looking for something to do that will provide a reasonable income from home in the future" may not exactly be the right motive if I'm perfectly honest, you may need more than that.
Cheers Kai. I think motivation is a personal thing. I love sports, I love finance, I love analysing data, I love the freedom of working from home. That's motivation enough for me!
Post Reply

Return to “Trading Psychology”