Advice, Suggestions

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

While trading yesterday I was having a good day (trading with smallish stakes) better than most. Then I got a trade wrong and I can only describe it as a "Tilt" I took a loss of $11 which for me is well above average, but it got worse I re entered the trade and layed at the top of range and backed at the bottom. I cut my losses at $46 which is about 2 days good trading for me.

This happens to me about once every 6 weeks, thing is I spent 45+ years punting and have never gone on a tilt I can remember, I have had losing bet of $1k and have never experience a tilt after them. The other thing is I have redded up for $16 on more than 1 occasion and nothing, so why did $11 set me off?

The only thing I can think of is I was working when I was punting and money wasn't an issue. However when I left work to pursue this I got the usual comments form my managers saying if you fail you can still can come back here we will leave your job open for you. My work mates said to me no one wins from gambling and you are falling for a scam internet is full of this stuff, one guy asked me to name a professional punter I knew personally. I thought for a second and said to him, well it's like this, it hard to saw like an Eagle when your surrounded by Turkeys, he didn't like that comment too much.

The upside is I have broken no Banks and my bank after 10 months is up 58% even with these tilts, also after the one yesterday I went for a walk, came back to turn PC off but thought no I can't fester on this I need to get back on the horse (non pun intended) go back to what I know works and carry on. I traded the rest of the day winning on all races but still down for the day. When I looked at my PNL for the day had I taken the $11 loss I would have still made a few $'s.

So my questions are
Is this something that will stop me from trading?

Can it be corrected and how?

Have others experienced this before and how did you overcome it?

My motivation for trading is stronger than ever, I am also determined to prove those arsehole wrong, I spend all my spare time reading about trading and watching and re watch video's on trading, I even dream about trading. But if I do have a deep seated issue I need to act on that now rather than let it resurface later on when I raise stakes. As I said after my walk I noticed I was very calm and traded very well, so maybe it is just a case of treating it as a pressure relief valve. But the worry is it came from out of the blue.

Today I am on practice mode as I am prepping for Xmas and I will be taking a break to catch up with family so if anyone has stuff I can read or watch I can do this over the break

Thanks in advance
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gazuty
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Green land :)

When you make a bad (initial trade) and suffer a loss, that is it, close that particular market and move on (for your $11 loss) and put it out of your mind. It is of no consequence to you. You are a profitable trader (overall), losses are to be expected. Move along (or sing the song - Let it Go, the cold/loss never bothered you anyway).

That is the mindset you need. Train and master your mind.

How to do it - practice, practice, pracitce. Go to the gym of the mind. You make a loss, move on, you make a profit, move on. Let each invdivual event go - it is of no consequence to you.

(That is why for me, automation is king, it doesn't care about the last market or the next market, automation has no feelings and does not need to make up any losses).
Anbell
Posts: 2007
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

andy28 wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:08 am
While trading yesterday I was having a good day (trading with smallish stakes) better than most. Then I got a trade wrong and I can only describe it as a "Tilt" I took a loss of $11 which for me is well above average, but it got worse I re entered the trade and layed at the top of range and backed at the bottom. I cut my losses at $46 which is about 2 days good trading for me.

This happens to me about once every 6 weeks, thing is I spent 45+ years punting and have never gone on a tilt I can remember, I have had losing bet of $1k and have never experience a tilt after them. The other thing is I have redded up for $16 on more than 1 occasion and nothing, so why did $11 set me off?

The only thing I can think of is I was working when I was punting and money wasn't an issue. However when I left work to pursue this I got the usual comments form my managers saying if you fail you can still can come back here we will leave your job open for you. My work mates said to me no one wins from gambling and you are falling for a scam internet is full of this stuff, one guy asked me to name a professional punter I knew personally. I thought for a second and said to him, well it's like this, it hard to saw like an Eagle when your surrounded by Turkeys, he didn't like that comment too much.

The upside is I have broken no Banks and my bank after 10 months is up 58% even with these tilts, also after the one yesterday I went for a walk, came back to turn PC off but thought no I can't fester on this I need to get back on the horse (non pun intended) go back to what I know works and carry on. I traded the rest of the day winning on all races but still down for the day. When I looked at my PNL for the day had I taken the $11 loss I would have still made a few $'s.

So my questions are
Is this something that will stop me from trading?

Can it be corrected and how?

Have others experienced this before and how did you overcome it?

My motivation for trading is stronger than ever, I am also determined to prove those arsehole wrong, I spend all my spare time reading about trading and watching and re watch video's on trading, I even dream about trading. But if I do have a deep seated issue I need to act on that now rather than let it resurface later on when I raise stakes. As I said after my walk I noticed I was very calm and traded very well, so maybe it is just a case of treating it as a pressure relief valve. But the worry is it came from out of the blue.

Today I am on practice mode as I am prepping for Xmas and I will be taking a break to catch up with family so if anyone has stuff I can read or watch I can do this over the break

Thanks in advance
https://jaredtendler.com/books/the-ment ... f-trading/
TipTopTrader
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

I can suggest you watch Rande Howell. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ul+trading. I'm suggesting because he has a great way of explaining the reason why these things can become a problem.

I'm not promoting his course, that's always a decision for the individual. I'm sure there are others that teach a similar thing.

He's got free videos that explain most of the reasons why etc.

If you can compare your mindset from when you put the 1k bet on. Calm, well planned etc. Did you obsess over getting the best price when you placed it, or did you accept you can't pick the top of the market all the time etc.

You had no intention of losing the initial 11 dollars, let alone the 46. It's not the dollar amount but the feeling how much work it will take to make it back trading that tilts you.

All the best.
andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

TipTopTrader wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:53 am
I can suggest you watch Rande Howell. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ul+trading. I'm suggesting because he has a great way of explaining the reason why these things can become a problem.

I'm not promoting his course, that's always a decision for the individual. I'm sure there are others that teach a similar thing.

He's got free videos that explain most of the reasons why etc.

If you can compare your mindset from when you put the 1k bet on. Calm, well planned etc. Did you obsess over getting the best price when you placed it, or did you accept you can't pick the top of the market all the time etc.

You had no intention of losing the initial 11 dollars, let alone the 46. It's not the dollar amount but the feeling how much work it will take to make it back trading that tilts you.

All the best.
Thanks all for the advice and links .

But that video by Rande Howell nailed it for me, what he said was like he was there. When I looked back on that trade I can see issues that he mentioned that I need to address

1) I get out of trades too early because I want a high hit rate, so I take a few cents or scratch more that I should as it makes me feel good, but when something goes against me and in a big way I let my caveman mind take over to protect my bank, which in turn cost me more money. I remember thinking at the time I have lost all my days profits and some in one trade. Just Dumb!!!!! Should have just taken the hit and moved on to the next race

2) Just 2 days before I had broken thru my next level of my staking plan so had a higher liability, Plus looking back I did recall just before it went pair shaped my heart rate was up my breathing was shallow and I was getting tunnel vision and drawn into the monitor focusing on that one horse. I should have got out a lot earlier than I did. My thinking brain knew what was about to happen but it got over ruled.

3) I got into the trade earlier that I would normally HOPING it would go my way, I can't control the market so was a big mistake. I can't make things happen I have to wait and then pounce

So plenty to work on, and thanks again

Automation would suit me but I am yet to find a strategy that works for me on Pre Horse racing markets
TipTopTrader
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Peter Webb, does have great advice on the Betangel youtube channel on the best way to develop a trading strategy.
andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

Yes thanks, I watched his I recall him talking about the russell in the bushes for a caveman was never a good thing
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wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3207
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

IMHO, managing/coping with a losing trade comes down organised money management and the % compared to overall bank.

If the $11 was,say, 0.5% of your overall bank, it's easier to absorb and crack on with the next trade. Yes it smarts, but when reviewing the overall days performance, you can identify what you did wrong and put it right next time.
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Kai
Posts: 6099
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

andy28 wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:42 am
2) Just 2 days before I had broken thru my next level of my staking plan so had a higher liability, Plus looking back I did recall just before it went pair shaped my heart rate was up my breathing was shallow and I was getting tunnel vision and drawn into the monitor focusing on that one horse. I should have got out a lot earlier than I did. My thinking brain knew what was about to happen but it got over ruled.
Would say it's pretty normal when increasing stakes, going outside your staking comfort zones means your emotions can easily override logic and you play right into the market's hands, since suddenly the fear of a bigger loss with bigger stakes can undo plenty of good previous work. If elevated heart rates etc persist then the confidence is probably not there yet to back it all up.

Building new comfort zones or finding yours is never easy, can depend on many factors so it's a difficult balance to strike, many good/top traders stake well below the market limits, as the only real limit is your so-called comfort zone. But push a very experienced trader too far outside of that staking zone on any one particular trade and the same irrational thoughts will start creeping in, just as they would in a newbie trader.
andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

Kai wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:46 pm
andy28 wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:42 am
2) Just 2 days before I had broken thru my next level of my staking plan so had a higher liability, Plus looking back I did recall just before it went pair shaped my heart rate was up my breathing was shallow and I was getting tunnel vision and drawn into the monitor focusing on that one horse. I should have got out a lot earlier than I did. My thinking brain knew what was about to happen but it got over ruled.
Would say it's pretty normal when increasing stakes, going outside your staking comfort zones means your emotions can easily override logic and you play right into the market's hands, since suddenly the fear of a bigger loss with bigger stakes can undo plenty of good previous work. If elevated heart rates etc persist then the confidence is probably not there yet to back it all up.

Building new comfort zones or finding yours is never easy, can depend on many factors so it's a difficult balance to strike, many good/top traders stake well below the market limits, as the only real limit is your so-called comfort zone. But push a very experienced trader too far outside of that staking zone on any one particular trade and the same irrational thoughts will start creeping in, just as they would in a newbie trader.
I agree, I decided to cut stakes a while back and stick to a strict staking plan which is working as my bank is growing

I watch Peter calmly putting 500-1000 pound into a market and is comfortable to let the trade play out. So when I reduced my stakes it did make me more relaxed and I was letting the trades play out a little more, but still not enough to maximise my profit so a bigger loss is harder to take and harder to claw back.

I have adjusted my staking plan further to give me time to build confidence and gain experience and also train myself into getting my mind into a right space and recognise symptoms of my thinking brain telling me to get out..

I think it was Shaune that said I didn't lose money I paid for a lesson, but more importantly with the advice given to me I have learnt from that lesson.
andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

gazuty wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:05 am
When you make a bad (initial trade) and suffer a loss, that is it, close that particular market and move on (for your $11 loss) and put it out of your mind. It is of no consequence to you. You are a profitable trader (overall), losses are to be expected. Move along (or sing the song - Let it Go, the cold/loss never bothered you anyway).

That is the mindset you need. Train and master your mind.

How to do it - practice, practice, pracitce. Go to the gym of the mind. You make a loss, move on, you make a profit, move on. Let each invdivual event go - it is of no consequence to you.

(That is why for me, automation is king, it doesn't care about the last market or the next market, automation has no feelings and does not need to make up any losses).
I know exactly what you mean, I was playing golf with a guy that sliced the ball into the trees, the other guys were saying to play all sorts of aggressive (trick) shots. He calmly chipped the ball back onto the fairway, they said he was a coward, but he said if I did what you guys said I would be in the trees on the other side of the fairway. He said once he was in the trees there was nothing he could about that, the only thing he could do was play the smart game and set himself for the next shot.

I would love to get Automation going but I am a lot closer to the caveman than you are if you get my drift ;) ;)
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alexmr2
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:32 am

It's disheartening when the occassional mistake sets you back but not the end of the world if you deal with it reasonably well, your long-term P&L should look positive like it's no big deal. Try and see if you can think of a way to avoid it happening again.

If you chase the loss and go on the tilt it can decimate your monthly P&L but if you walk away and accept that losing day then you can still be up by the end of the week by sticking to your plan.

Also sometimes it's unavoidable but it's not good to have doubters in the back of your mind when trading because subconsciously your ego can become desperate for wins to prove them wrong which could mean your trading will suffer from being more loss averse or taking bigger risks etc.
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Next time you sit at your desk don't picture yourself as someone who's learning to trade, picture yourself as someone who is trading. Beginners can try and tilt their way out of trouble or let a big loss run, but when you're actually doing this you have face up to the difficult things. It's no different to when you have any other job, sometimes it's fine, sometimes you have to do the hard/boring or difficult things. And when you do, or walk away after a rubbish day, then that's just what the job is, so embrace it rather than being bothered by it.

...I'm glad people on here aren't learning to be brain surgeons, "I'm fine for a week or two and then one day I just find myself slashing around with the scalpel". :shock:
andy28
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:06 am
Location: NZ

ShaunWhite wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:49 am
Next time you sit at your desk don't picture yourself as someone who's learning to trade, picture yourself as someone who is trading. Beginners can try and tilt their way out of trouble or let a big loss run, but when you're actually doing this you have face up to the difficult things. It's no different to when you have any other job, sometimes it's fine, sometimes you have to do the hard/boring or difficult things. And when you do, or walk away after a rubbish day, then that's just what the job is, so embrace it rather than being bothered by it.

...I'm glad people on here aren't learning to be brain surgeons, "I'm fine for a week or two and then one day I just find myself slashing around with the scalpel". :shock:
You are right, I have to accept there will be bad days and good days.

After watching video's/reading up on emotions I think my problem is I am risk adverse, hence why I will take a small profit over letting the trade go if all the signals are still in my favour. So I have some stuff to watch for and ways to control it when it does happen.

Thanks again All
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jamesedwards
Posts: 2234
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm

Someone on this very forum once said that the difference between a good and bad trader is how you handle a screen full of red.

I STILL struggle with this part of my game even 3 years into full-time professional trading.

I can feel a New Year's Resolution coming on...
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