Can I Place a Betfair SP Bet?

[firlandsfarm]

You can place a bet at BSP before the race by placing the bet and then ordering TakeSP

Yes but to clarify the position that just converts your risk (the stake for a back bet and the liability for a lay bet) into an SP bet so while OK for a back bet it fails for a lay bet if you are betting by stake amount, the stake will be reduced to maintain the same liability. As you know it's not the same as placing a direct SP bet where you can set odds limits and control the stake amount.

[benjay]

Hi,

I'm looking at downloading Bet Angel with a view to backing/laying based on BSP. I am a complete novice so excuse my ignorance and hoping this is the right thread. Can a rule be created to back/lay a horse based on BSP? I can't quite put my finger on how to do it from the videos I've watched. My main query on the automation function is that as we know hardly any races go off on the dot and therefore the price at the (advertised) off time will differ from the actual BSP. Any help is much appreciated.

TIA

Its not clear if you mean backing/laying at the BSP once the race is in play
Or placing the bets pre-off to be taken BSP when BF reconciles them?

Thanks for everyones replies. I am just wanting to back/lay a horse at BSP so I think that relates to your second point. I think I've seen on this thread that you can create a rule that uses Back @ 1000 and Lay @1.01 and then Take SP function if unmatched. I would also want to apply this to a selection i.e specific horse, by row index, by position etc. Would this work?

[firlandsfarm]

... Back @ 1000 and Lay @1.01 and then Take SP function if unmatched ... Would this work?

Maybe Yes for Backing but Maybe Not for Laying. My experience is that when allocating BSP to "take BSP" bets rather than "directly requested" BSP bets is that I think they start allocating to bets where the requested odd of the unmatched bet is closest to the calculated BSP. Not all "take BSP" bets are matched. So taking BSP on a 1000.00 odd unmatched bet on the favourite at 2.00 will probably not be matched (and I think in that situation it would be fair for Bf to say the differential in the odds was such that swapping it for a BSP match was not credible).

Laying is a different situation. Firstly as I understand it the liability has to be at least £10 so a bet of £100 @ 1.01 would not be included in the "take BSP" computation at the off. And, Bf will match your unmatched bet to BSP for the same liability. So if you had an unmatched bet of £1000 @ 1.01 the liability is £10. If the BSP is 10.00 the unmatched bet would be matched at BSP for a stake of £1! If you wanted a liability of £100 maybe you could place a bet of £10,000 @ 1.01 and see how that goes, I've never tried it.

Another downside of "take BSP" is that you cannot fix min and max odds ... you just have to take whatever transpires in accordance with the above explanation (if correct).

I do not consider myself an expert on the intricacies of converting unmatched bets to BSP so would welcome any corrections to that but this is why I first raised the issue of BA not offering to place bets directly at BSP.. Take BSP is not a substitute.

[jimibt]

... Back @ 1000 and Lay @1.01 and then Take SP function if unmatched ... Would this work?

Another downside of "take BSP" is that you cannot fix min and max odds ... you just have to take whatever transpires in accordance with the above explanation (if correct).

I do not consider myself an expert on the intricacies of converting unmatched bets to BSP so would welcome any corrections to that but this is why I first raised the issue of BA not offering to place bets directly at BSP.. Take BSP is not a substitute.

i posed the same question as a feature request a while back and was told by Devs that the SP Limit Order type would require changes to both the UI, the transaction model and the way that automation worked. in short, it's not a trivial change (despite what it may seem to *us*).

they actually are quite different when you think about the realities - min/max plus you can't cancel a sp limit order once placed. however, it's a different class to TakeSP and for strategies that rely on BSP is the only way to go.

[benjay]

... Back @ 1000 and Lay @1.01 and then Take SP function if unmatched ... Would this work?

Another downside of "take BSP" is that you cannot fix min and max odds ... you just have to take whatever transpires in accordance with the above explanation (if correct).

I do not consider myself an expert on the intricacies of converting unmatched bets to BSP so would welcome any corrections to that but this is why I first raised the issue of BA not offering to place bets directly at BSP.. Take BSP is not a substitute.

i posed the same question as a feature request a while back and was told by Devs that the SP Limit Order type would require changes to both the UI, the transaction model and the way that automation worked. in short, it's not a trivial change (despite what it may seem to *us*).

they actually are quite different when you think about the realities - min/max plus you can't cancel a sp limit order once placed. however, it's a different class to TakeSP and for strategies that rely on BSP is the only way to go.

Thanks everyone.

If anyone knows of a way/rule to help me back/lay my selection at the BSP (irrespective of price) it would be much appreciated. At the moment, I haven't even downloaded BA as still trying to source a suitable laptop that will be able to handle the software, so still need to have a practice. Apparently the best laptop would be a quadcore processor and with 8gb of RAM which is need for live trading? Could I get away with a dual core processor with 4gb of RAM for just automation bets? Would that work with live trading as wlel?

[Dallas]

Another downside of "take BSP" is that you cannot fix min and max odds ... you just have to take whatever transpires in accordance with the above explanation (if correct).

I do not consider myself an expert on the intricacies of converting unmatched bets to BSP so would welcome any corrections to that but this is why I first raised the issue of BA not offering to place bets directly at BSP.. Take BSP is not a substitute.

i posed the same question as a feature request a while back and was told by Devs that the SP Limit Order type would require changes to both the UI, the transaction model and the way that automation worked. in short, it's not a trivial change (despite what it may seem to *us*).

they actually are quite different when you think about the realities - min/max plus you can't cancel a sp limit order once placed. however, it's a different class to TakeSP and for strategies that rely on BSP is the only way to go.

Thanks everyone.

If anyone knows of a way/rule to help me back/lay my selection at the BSP (irrespective of price) it would be much appreciated. At the moment, I haven't even downloaded BA as still trying to source a suitable laptop that will be able to handle the software, so still need to have a practice. Apparently the best laptop would be a quadcore processor and with 8gb of RAM which is need for live trading? Could I get away with a dual core processor with 4gb of RAM for just automation bets? Would that work with live trading as wlel?

If you were only manually trading one market you might just get away with 4gb ram and a duel core (although you didn't say what speed).
But if you wanted to start using Servants, opening the MO or advanced charts, use Watch list or run automation in the background etc then its going to struggle

[benjay]

i posed the same question as a feature request a while back and was told by Devs that the SP Limit Order type would require changes to both the UI, the transaction model and the way that automation worked. in short, it's not a trivial change (despite what it may seem to *us*).

they actually are quite different when you think about the realities - min/max plus you can't cancel a sp limit order once placed. however, it's a different class to TakeSP and for strategies that rely on BSP is the only way to go.

Thanks everyone.

If anyone knows of a way/rule to help me back/lay my selection at the BSP (irrespective of price) it would be much appreciated. At the moment, I haven't even downloaded BA as still trying to source a suitable laptop that will be able to handle the software, so still need to have a practice. Apparently the best laptop would be a quadcore processor and with 8gb of RAM which is need for live trading? Could I get away with a dual core processor with 4gb of RAM for just automation bets? Would that work with live trading as wlel?

If you were only manually trading one market you might just get away with 4gb ram and a duel core (although you didn't say what speed).
But if you wanted to start using Servants, opening the MO or advanced charts, use Watch list or run automation in the background etc then its going to struggle

At this stage I am only looking to use the guardian feature, however I may try trading on one market occasionally to see how that goes. The laptop I was looking at (purely for BA and not using for anything else) would have a Intel® Celeron™ N4000 Processor, Dual-core,1.1 GHz / 2.6 GHz. Would that work for my needs? If not any recommendations or minimum speeds would be appreciated.

[firlandsfarm]

... I may try trading on one market occasionally to see how that goes ...

Benjay, I suggest you read some of the newbie trader threads here and get the general feel from the comments the experienced traders generally discuss. I doubt you will find many (if any) who would expect such an unfocused approach to work!

[benjay]

... I may try trading on one market occasionally to see how that goes ...

Benjay, I suggest you read some of the newbie trader threads here and get the general feel from the comments the experienced traders generally discuss. I doubt you will find many (if any) who would expect such an unfocused approach to work!

Ok. As I am in full time employment I wanted to give guardian/automated bets a try (as wanted to give my system based on BSP a go) but if I did want to get more involved I just wanted to buy something that could handle that. I'm watching videos on YouTube and doing the courses in the Bet Angel academy, but will check out the other threads to see what other newbies say. If I could give it more focus I would! I guess we all have to start somewhere

[ShaunWhite]

I think they start allocating to bets where the requested odd of the unmatched bet is closest to the calculated BSP. Not all "take BSP" bets are matched. So taking BSP on a 1000.00 odd unmatched bet on the favourite at 2.00 will probably not be matched

Have you got any examples? I don't think I've ever has an SP bet that didn't get matched assuming it met the liability requirements.

If you wanted a liability of £100 maybe you could place a bet of £10,000 @ 1.01 and see how that goes, I've never tried it.

Yep that's how you do it. Although the first few times you're staking over 100k it makes your ring twitch a bit. It just feels wrong even though your liability is actually ok.

So yeah, back at 1000 or lay at 1.01 for a given liability and you should be fine. BSP is within 1% of the last mid price the vast majority of the time so you could set up some automation to place or cancel your bet as the expected SP comes in and out of your range.

[benjay]

I think they start allocating to bets where the requested odd of the unmatched bet is closest to the calculated BSP. Not all "take BSP" bets are matched. So taking BSP on a 1000.00 odd unmatched bet on the favourite at 2.00 will probably not be matched

Have you got any examples? I don't think I've ever has an SP bet that didn't get matched assuming it met the liability requirements.

If you wanted a liability of £100 maybe you could place a bet of £10,000 @ 1.01 and see how that goes, I've never tried it.

Yep that's how you do it. Although the first few times you're staking over 100k it makes your ring twitch a bit. It just feels wrong even though your liability is actually ok.

So yeah, back at 1000 or lay at 1.01 for a given liability and you should be fine. BSP is within 1% of the last mid price the vast majority of the time so you could set up some automation to place or cancel your bet as the expected SP comes in and out of your range.

Thanks Shaun. Can this be applied if I lay for a fixed amount e.g. if i automate a lay bet of row 1 at BSP and say TakeSP irrespective of price? Or does it have to be set up based on liability? Apologies for my ignorance and I know I just need to download and have a practice

[ShaunWhite]

Thanks Shaun. Can this be applied if I lay for a fixed amount e.g. if i automate a lay bet of row 1 at BSP and say TakeSP irrespective of price? Or does it have to be set up based on liability? Apologies for my ignorance and I know I just need to download and have a practice

You can stake whatever you like, BA will let you choose a fixed stake or a stake based on a fixed liability.

But when the SP bet gets matched, Betfair will adjust your stake to preserve the liability you were expecting at the price you originally placed your bet at.
So if you layed £1000 at 1.01 expecting a liability of £10, and the market settled at Evens, Betfair would change your stake to £10 rather than expose you to a £1000 liability by keeping the stake at £1000.

Rather than having a practice, spend the time familiarising yourself with the Exchange rules and the BA User Guide. It's cheaper.

Eg https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/FAQs_theBasics.html

[ShaunWhite]

Not all "take BSP" bets are matched.

I doubted this above but I checked and according to the rules you're spot on. I just don't recall ever experiencing it, but then again I rarely check what bets I've had matched.

[benjay]

Thanks Shaun. Can this be applied if I lay for a fixed amount e.g. if i automate a lay bet of row 1 at BSP and say TakeSP irrespective of price? Or does it have to be set up based on liability? Apologies for my ignorance and I know I just need to download and have a practice

You can stake whatever you like, BA will let you choose a fixed stake or a stake based on a fixed liability.

But when the SP bet gets matched, Betfair will adjust your stake to preserve the liability you were expecting at the price you originally placed your bet at.
So if you layed £1000 at 1.01 expecting a liability of £10, and the market settled at Evens, Betfair would change your stake to £10 rather than expose you to a £1000 liability by keeping the stake at £1000.

Rather than having a practice, spend the time familiarising yourself with the Exchange rules and the BA User Guide. It's cheaper.

Eg https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/FAQs_theBasics.html

Thanks Shaun, appreciate the help.

[firlandsfarm]

I think they start allocating to bets where the requested odd of the unmatched bet is closest to the calculated BSP. Not all "take BSP" bets are matched. So taking BSP on a 1000.00 odd unmatched bet on the favourite at 2.00 will probably not be matched

Have you got any examples? I don't think I've ever has an SP bet that didn't get matched assuming it met the liability requirements.

'fraid not Shaun (and welcome back just remember one thing ... don't let the bastards grind you down ) . I only have unscientific gut feel. I've had "take BSP" situations not taken sometimes and just shrugged my shoulders and carried on to the next race. It has been very infrequent and not worth the effort of deep investigation compared to the amount involved. Some of the missed BSP bets would have won and some would have lost so the risk is only the marginal profit as a whole (I don't believe in the Sod's Law that says missed bets always win! ).

BSP is within 1% of the last mid price the vast majority of the time so you could set up some automation to place or cancel your bet as the expected SP comes in and out of your range.

My turn ... have you got any examples?! According to my data, of the 1027 races run in UK and Ireland this year 355 had a BSP book below 100%, I wouldn't have expected the market odds to so equate ... do you have any knowledge of the accuracy of the projected BSP, it's something I keep meaning to monitor but haven't got around to it because before now I've not seen a real use for it.

PS: above was posted before I read your last post Shaun. Any more "couldn't be bothereders" out there?