Nobody is giving anybody stick as far as I can see. James1st has done some good posts, its just that some of use didn't agree with some of the comments. I think it's a great thread.
Also, not all of us carry emotional baggage. Maybe a thread should be started on why some people just can't do it or make the same mistake again and again, that would be just as helpful.
Newbies Trading in the Dark
Other reasons?! Its a debate enzabella, I just dont agree with some of his comments, and some of his comments don't seem to be from someone who trades these markets day in and day out. To me it looks like he studied them for maybe a day or two and made his mind up that the markets always behave this way. On the other side of the argument I've also said that I agree with some of his points so I don't understand why you think i'm against everything he's written.enzabella2009 wrote: There must be other reasons why he is getting some negative and unclear comments by rafterp. it`s not true that professionals never share their aknowledge, betangel is a proove of it.
To your point about professionals sharing their knowledge bet angel is a tool for trading, nothing more. It doesn't tell you how to make a profit consistently and nor should it.
And to answer your point neeeel,neeeel wrote:I agree with enzabella. Trading is made out to be easy, u just back, then lay, and profit. Nothing is mentioned about how much of a mental game it is, and that small flaws or characteristics in ur emotional make up can have a huge effect on your trading. I dont see why someone who is just pointing this fact out for newbie traders is getting so much stick, from people who we have no way of knowing whether they are actually profitable traders or not.
If people do any amount of homework before starting out at trading then they'll find plenty of advice and plenty of blogs out there stating that trading is 99% mental discipline. If that didn't cross your mind beforehand then you are definitely in the wrong game.
This is why I very rarely post on these threads, because when you disagree with somebody it can become personal. And usually not with the person you disagree with but with others who don't understand how trading works.
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
nothing personal m8.. where did you get the idea we were not debating? where did you get the idea we dont understand about tradings. I am still missing something here.. 
Many thanks for the positive words Enzabella, but I am long enough in the tooth to accept criticism and not bat an eyelid. However, posters who presume that they know me, my history or my trading status are shooting in the dark but I have come to recognise comments born of arrogance, that someone would dare question the established order of apprenticeship. Just because the majority of traders learnt their trade “from the ground up” and “sucking it and seeing”, does not mean that they are correct nor does it mean that every successful trader did/does it that way . Nor does it mean they are wrong, just different. Drawing conclusions that some one else’s methods are naïve or are a product of fanciful theory and exclusive of practical experience, demonstrates plain ignorance of the facts. Darwin faced the same criticism. When a trader reaches the point where he can predict with reasonable certainty, exactly where the odds are heading to when they move, and I don’t mean roughly, I mean exactly, then they will fully understand the pre race market. Not before then.
There are many facets to trading and the methods widely vary. Most traders are oblivious to what the market is doing around them and fail to recognise the predictability of where the “shakers and movers” are taking the odds. It is a much more structured environment than people realise. There is no “correct” way to trade but ones trading style is usually adapted to suit ones personality. (Great point by Mug on personality!).
Without insulting anyone, scalping is more the realm of introverts, loners and blinkered minds whereas defining different ways of looking at the market moves pre-race, including swing trading, requires a different sort of mind. One who can address problems from unique perspectives and quickly grasp a global overview of the market possibilities has greater leeway in how he chooses to benefit. One famous blogger certainly falls into this category; some folk believe he has mystical powers..lol.
There are many facets to trading and the methods widely vary. Most traders are oblivious to what the market is doing around them and fail to recognise the predictability of where the “shakers and movers” are taking the odds. It is a much more structured environment than people realise. There is no “correct” way to trade but ones trading style is usually adapted to suit ones personality. (Great point by Mug on personality!).
Without insulting anyone, scalping is more the realm of introverts, loners and blinkered minds whereas defining different ways of looking at the market moves pre-race, including swing trading, requires a different sort of mind. One who can address problems from unique perspectives and quickly grasp a global overview of the market possibilities has greater leeway in how he chooses to benefit. One famous blogger certainly falls into this category; some folk believe he has mystical powers..lol.
Hmm, that paragraph of mine your quoting wasn't really addressing the size of stake a beginner should use. It was addressing the idea that just to dive right in and have a go without having a clue is not a good way to start anything which is inherently risky. Unless your actively seeking to be food for others in one way or another.As mctash proved yesterday with the above quote people will go and read James' posts and think that all his points are common sense (which they are) but I can gaurantee that if you try a strategy based solely on his musings you are doomed to failure. Every succesful trader has started off on small stakes (not always minumum) and worked his way up. For a prime example please see below!
I also said people should use a bit of critical thinking with this thread, as they should with any advice they absorb.
John
James1st wrote: However, posters who presume that they know me, my history or my trading status are shooting in the dark but I have come to recognise comments born of arrogance, that someone would dare question the established order of apprenticeship.
I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant, I just didn't agree with some of the points you raised. And to say 'that someone would dare question the established order of apprenticeship' how arrogant is that?! It's also extremely vague. Can you elaborate?
Without insulting anyone, scalping is more the realm of introverts, loners and blinkered minds whereas defining different ways of looking at the market moves pre-race, including swing trading, requires a different sort of mind.
I think you managed to insult 90% of BA users with that comment!
RafterP
No one is trying to insult anyone in this forum, so it’s best to keep personal judgements of other posters to yourself. You said “I just dont agree with some of his comments, and some of his comments don't seem to be from someone who trades these markets day in and day out. To me it looks like he studied them for maybe a day or two and made his mind up that the markets always behave this way.”. This, I presume was intended as a personal attack and not a constructive criticism of the content of my posts. For the record you are completely wrong but I do understand why you made the comment.
Heretofore, the prevalent advice given to newbies learning to pre race trade was to jump into the markets and (albeit with small stakes), try out a few random trades until you recognise how it all works. My position is that there are other ways of approaching a new venture that involve a more top down approach to learning and understanding. A student learning about the combustion engine doesn’t need to dive headlong into learning how to change a sparkplug before he is instructed why its not a good idea to stand in front of a moving vehicle.
My posts are intended to look at the bigger picture first whilst listing all the options and pitfalls that a novice might face. Not everyone will face all the issues, nor are they expected to follow my posts as if they are some sort of comprehensive plan. However, the posts do highlight most of the issues that most traders will face sooner or later.
Newbies have an option on how they approach trading, whether their personality best suits scalping where the concentration is on the detailed movement of odds within a tight range, or perhaps they may be best suited to the wave trade looking for 3-5 ticks or even approach the Betfair market as they would any market and look for very long trades.
Just because a lot of traders were encouraged to go “change a sparkplug” does not mean that it is the best way to learn about Betfair markets (established order of apprenticeship). In fact I would go as far as to say that it’s the worst possible way to get your feet wet. I do not deny that many successful traders were encouraged to do this and have, after some considerable time, made a success of it. But what none of us really knows is how much more lucrative it would have been for them had they not dived in straight away, instead taking time to learn about market trading from the top down.
A discussion about what type of personality best suits what type of trading is necessarily one that will cause some folk to take umbrage at being typecast. It seems rather obvious to me that an introvert would be more comfortable tinkering with the engine rather than driving the car, but then again that’s just my own opinion. There are many personality test available to allow one to get an objective opinion of a responders character and in the words of BB Ashleyne “know yourself” is an important piece of key knowledge that can prove useful in determining trading style.
No one is trying to insult anyone in this forum, so it’s best to keep personal judgements of other posters to yourself. You said “I just dont agree with some of his comments, and some of his comments don't seem to be from someone who trades these markets day in and day out. To me it looks like he studied them for maybe a day or two and made his mind up that the markets always behave this way.”. This, I presume was intended as a personal attack and not a constructive criticism of the content of my posts. For the record you are completely wrong but I do understand why you made the comment.
Heretofore, the prevalent advice given to newbies learning to pre race trade was to jump into the markets and (albeit with small stakes), try out a few random trades until you recognise how it all works. My position is that there are other ways of approaching a new venture that involve a more top down approach to learning and understanding. A student learning about the combustion engine doesn’t need to dive headlong into learning how to change a sparkplug before he is instructed why its not a good idea to stand in front of a moving vehicle.
My posts are intended to look at the bigger picture first whilst listing all the options and pitfalls that a novice might face. Not everyone will face all the issues, nor are they expected to follow my posts as if they are some sort of comprehensive plan. However, the posts do highlight most of the issues that most traders will face sooner or later.
Newbies have an option on how they approach trading, whether their personality best suits scalping where the concentration is on the detailed movement of odds within a tight range, or perhaps they may be best suited to the wave trade looking for 3-5 ticks or even approach the Betfair market as they would any market and look for very long trades.
Just because a lot of traders were encouraged to go “change a sparkplug” does not mean that it is the best way to learn about Betfair markets (established order of apprenticeship). In fact I would go as far as to say that it’s the worst possible way to get your feet wet. I do not deny that many successful traders were encouraged to do this and have, after some considerable time, made a success of it. But what none of us really knows is how much more lucrative it would have been for them had they not dived in straight away, instead taking time to learn about market trading from the top down.
A discussion about what type of personality best suits what type of trading is necessarily one that will cause some folk to take umbrage at being typecast. It seems rather obvious to me that an introvert would be more comfortable tinkering with the engine rather than driving the car, but then again that’s just my own opinion. There are many personality test available to allow one to get an objective opinion of a responders character and in the words of BB Ashleyne “know yourself” is an important piece of key knowledge that can prove useful in determining trading style.
I think you need a strong personality type in order to succeed in any style, but getting into half cocked generalisations about what kind of personalities each type of user might have is falling into pretty dodgy ground.
Having said that he does make some good points here. For a great deal of people the original 'blueprint' for trading came from those early scalping videos which people followed and built a worldview around that.
Having said that he does make some good points here. For a great deal of people the original 'blueprint' for trading came from those early scalping videos which people followed and built a worldview around that.
James I think we should call a truce on this one because we both believe the other is talking out of his backside.
Lets just agree to differ and ackowledge that different traders have many different trading styles.
As a final note on this I'll say again that there are many points of yours that I disagree with but having said that you also make a lot of valid points. However I still believe that for the majority of newbie traders it would be best for them to start off with small stakes. In an ideal world maybe they would start their trading career by adopting strategies from both sides of our argument, that way everybody would be happy
Good luck to you
Lets just agree to differ and ackowledge that different traders have many different trading styles.
As a final note on this I'll say again that there are many points of yours that I disagree with but having said that you also make a lot of valid points. However I still believe that for the majority of newbie traders it would be best for them to start off with small stakes. In an ideal world maybe they would start their trading career by adopting strategies from both sides of our argument, that way everybody would be happy
Good luck to you
I don't really support one side or the other but seems to me the very nature of James' advice is very general and therefore difficult to disagree with so strongly. Furthermore, the people who have disagreed haven't fully explained their points and often misunderstood the points that were made in the first place.
So I suggest instead of fighting people offer up some well thought out advice of their own without the bashing. Any half decent trader is going to know how to take things at face value anyways, the flaming is pointless and unproductive.
So I suggest instead of fighting people offer up some well thought out advice of their own without the bashing. Any half decent trader is going to know how to take things at face value anyways, the flaming is pointless and unproductive.
Hu Guys,
Just read this entire thread straight through. Obviously there is a lot of info here, particularly from James. For the mix I'd like to say that I have no problem with newbies jumping in with small stakes with the goal of getting a feel for Betfair, for BA, and getting to know the markets a bit better. However...
as James rightly pointed out, there are some fundamental trading mechanics that if overlooked will condemn newbies to certain losses. For my money, first and foremost everyone should consider the mathematics of what they are going to do, it is vital.
As an example, if you have ever received a tipsters newsletter or promo sheet that claims "75% strike rate" or something similar have you stopped and considered what it means. For the average punter the immediate thought is "ooh, high strike rate must be a good thing". In fact the claim, even if true, is meaningless unless the tipster also tells you his average odds over that strike rate (which they almost NEVER do). The fact is you can successfuly operate a system that has a low strike as long as you have a big enough return (odds) on those times you win and a big strike rate would be worthless if your return during those wins wasn't enough to cover the losses.
A similar truth exists in trading. If you scalp with a 1 pip profit and 3 pip stop loss you need to be successful a certain percentage of the time just to break even (ignoring commission). Newbies ignore knowing what these basic figures are for their system at their peril.
Cheers for now.
Just read this entire thread straight through. Obviously there is a lot of info here, particularly from James. For the mix I'd like to say that I have no problem with newbies jumping in with small stakes with the goal of getting a feel for Betfair, for BA, and getting to know the markets a bit better. However...
as James rightly pointed out, there are some fundamental trading mechanics that if overlooked will condemn newbies to certain losses. For my money, first and foremost everyone should consider the mathematics of what they are going to do, it is vital.
As an example, if you have ever received a tipsters newsletter or promo sheet that claims "75% strike rate" or something similar have you stopped and considered what it means. For the average punter the immediate thought is "ooh, high strike rate must be a good thing". In fact the claim, even if true, is meaningless unless the tipster also tells you his average odds over that strike rate (which they almost NEVER do). The fact is you can successfuly operate a system that has a low strike as long as you have a big enough return (odds) on those times you win and a big strike rate would be worthless if your return during those wins wasn't enough to cover the losses.
A similar truth exists in trading. If you scalp with a 1 pip profit and 3 pip stop loss you need to be successful a certain percentage of the time just to break even (ignoring commission). Newbies ignore knowing what these basic figures are for their system at their peril.
Cheers for now.
Good post, i find James 1st posts quite interesting, but i to suspect these are posts from Forex traders, as i used to read alot of Forex trading points and have used some like stakeking and money management. But i must say James why are you so against in running trading?? i do this most of the time with BA on certain types of races and i get a 75% strike rate, and i dont loose my bank(s) as i manage the positionsenzabella2009 wrote:I dont believe he copied and pasted all his points. He reconized the fibonacci series on the spot. he must have some kind of aknowledge with numbers and mental strenght needed to be a trader. You may not pay TAXes over UK but, UK isn`t the whole world. I pay taxes over sporting tradings and the illegal betfair fee charges. Everything i did not declared in the past I will have to face a settlement in the future when I will be found out guilty by the Italian tax-revenue officers.Relax, I won`t be facing jail, I have to simply, once caught, declare the ammount and accept a payment settlement with 75% discount over the whole sum of money.RafterP wrote:I'm of the opinion that either you have just copied and pasted all your points from somewhere or you just dont really have a clue about sports trading, as illustrated more than once by your mention of the dreaded 3 letter word 'TAX'
If there were tax involved in this type of venture nobody would be trading.
I believe BA is not a dodgy system, for what I know is one of the best around. My only concerns came from the training videos on you tube but I would not appreaciate to be attacked by several lions, so I stop there.
James1st please do carry on, end the final part of your post it very interesting.
Again, People need to read what I wrote, not what they think I wrote. My posts are based on market experience and independent thought and do not contain any "copy/pastes" whatsoever. Locussst wrote and I agree "Furthermore, the people who have disagreed haven't fully explained their points and often misunderstood the points that were made in the first place".
I successfully traded the financial/stock markets for many years (although never the Forex) and the application of mathematically sensible staking and sound money management discipline (a very wide ranging topic) is just as essential in the Betfair Markets as it is in any other market. My own considerable experience of Betfair (I joined on day 2) backs up that assertion. I have listed most of the more important factors that a newbie has to consider if he wishes to approach the market in a "non suck it and see" manner. Of course some experienced traders may find points that are common knowledge/obvious to themselves but this is not so for newcomers. My PM's bear testimony to that.
A Pre-race trader executes his business, scalping or swing trading, before the start of a race, according to his own plan. His expertise is very specific to gaining more ticks than he loses, hence it is unwise to allow incomplete trades to go in running where the outcome is unpredictable. That is not to say that punters who specifically play the in-running markets should not do so, if that is their chosen playing field. Even this form of gambling requires discipline and anyone who flys by the seat of their pants in any market will soon find themselves crashing to the ground.
I successfully traded the financial/stock markets for many years (although never the Forex) and the application of mathematically sensible staking and sound money management discipline (a very wide ranging topic) is just as essential in the Betfair Markets as it is in any other market. My own considerable experience of Betfair (I joined on day 2) backs up that assertion. I have listed most of the more important factors that a newbie has to consider if he wishes to approach the market in a "non suck it and see" manner. Of course some experienced traders may find points that are common knowledge/obvious to themselves but this is not so for newcomers. My PM's bear testimony to that.
A Pre-race trader executes his business, scalping or swing trading, before the start of a race, according to his own plan. His expertise is very specific to gaining more ticks than he loses, hence it is unwise to allow incomplete trades to go in running where the outcome is unpredictable. That is not to say that punters who specifically play the in-running markets should not do so, if that is their chosen playing field. Even this form of gambling requires discipline and anyone who flys by the seat of their pants in any market will soon find themselves crashing to the ground.