scalping - no longer worth doing?

[cyxstudio]

Hi all, i have spent 2 years learning to trade horse racing. It begins when i read about this scalping technique from adam todd where you take a 1 tick trade and repeat it many times. I also bought the Richard's trading for profits video tutorials that costs 200 quid (no longer available). But no matter how i attempt to take a 1 tick trade overall i would always be in a loss for all kinds of reasons, waiting too long to cut losses, not waiting long enough to get out..

I have come to a conclusion that making one tick trade isn't a +EV trading strategy because if the market moves in your favour, it is more likely to move more. If you get out after a tick, its a waste and doesn't cover the loss when market moves against you. Plus on a weekday horse racing market ( even on a saturday), markets will always be volatile and trends develop. Imagine taking only 1 tick profit but take a 6 tick loss. Horses with a trading range of a straight line doesn't exist at all. I assumed the market has evolved from the time Adam Todd traded.

I started throwing away everything I read or watch and try to relearn the market myself by watching the prices react, Making trades by taking 3-8 ticks profit/loss. It works out better for me that way.

The only exception is Cheltenham , where the price doesn't move at all due to the sheer amount of money.

Would you agree with me that the 1 tick scalping technique is either a myth or doesn't work anymore ?

[scottydog]

I have been trading for a few months and I think there are lots of scalping opportunities. There was a handful today. I do think the sideways market is a myth however directional scalping is better.
Maybe booking a place on Peters masterclass will be good for you, I know you've been trading 2 years but there is a few obvious pointers you've missed out in your explanation that could really help. Its not my place to say them.
Scalping is easier in my opinion and I find atleast a handful every day.

[Dallas]

The markets have indeed evolved alot since those videos you refer to where made and in particular scalping is nowhere near as simple and profitable as it once was, a few years back you could scalp practically everything and the money was there for the taking.
Im not saying its no longer possible to scalp but for most of the reasons you have outlined it now much different and much more difficult to profit long term from it these days, if you are wanting to scalp then the best type of markets are usually the competitive handicaps - these will often have a few horses at similar prices all within a tightish range with each taking it in turns to come in then go back out and rather than looking for the 1 tick scalp possibly aim for 2-3 tick scalps with a view to close if it goes against you around 5 ticks

The same can also be done on the festival meeting with large volumes going through them for the reasons you mensioned.

My preference is swing trading im always looking for signs of several plus ticks movments before i get involved.

[LeTiss]

For those of us relics that have been trading BF for a long time, it's clear the markets have changed a great deal in recent times. Scalping has become much more difficult than in previous years, that's for sure.

I think there are many reasons for that

[steven1976]

Don't forget there are more than horse racing markets and some markets set up better than others for a scalp.

[cyxstudio]

Don't forget there are more than horse racing markets and some markets set up better than others for a scalp.

such as?

[Euler]

Have you tried reading all the discussions and posts on the forum or viewing some of hundreds of video on the bet angel you tube channel? Not sure you are going to learn much from the sources you have used already.

[cyxstudio]

Have you tried reading all the discussions and posts on the forum or viewing some of hundreds of video on the bet angel you tube channel? Not sure you are going to learn much from the sources you have used already.

Joined more than one year ago, but only started reading yesterday. didnt know there's so much gold in here.

[steven1976]

Don't forget there are more than horse racing markets and some markets set up better than others for a scalp.

such as?

Something that depends on the time stamp of the game for example.

[marko236]

All good points above, the main advantage to any stratagy is being good at knowing what direction the market is going if you can do that then you can scalp just about anything.

I think the main reason that scalping is harder now is that new ideas of trading have evolved, you have to think outside the box a bit.

[LeTiss]

I think they main differences are - PC killed many of the liquidity providers which always meant real money was available, not fake money.

This in turn has destroyed the 'fill rate' - if it takes longer to get matched on both sides of the book, it means your more vulnerable to an unexpected movement

Also, more and more people are using bots now, including BF tampering with the eco system. This means the markets work differently if you're not betting against another person anymore.

[Kai]

Would you agree with me that the 1 tick scalping technique is either a myth or doesn't work anymore ?

Well neither really, it can still be done but it's just more difficult because you need very good (what I call) ladder mechanics. With scalping in general you kind of have to pick your battles (like handicap races etc), ideally you want to scalp the noise and swing real price movements. Last year I pretty successful as a pure noise scalper before I switched to footy, because I didn't really know how to swing properly on horses, and the real money is of course in the swings. I know a couple of other traders who are also pure scalpers so it can still be done, one of them has a blog with daily P/L updates and basically no losing days, if you're interested in reading it you can PM me.

Speaking of scalping mechanics themselves, most people simply try to be first in queue on both sides and they scalp that way, they achieve that by first putting some stakes on ticks where there's little or no money (or anywhere really if you're willing to wait) and then they wait for the price to come to them, so when it does come and they think they are about to get matched they try to time it so they get matched on both sides at the same time. Not sure if I explained it properly, but in short it's all about managing your queue position and being aware exactly where you are in the queue so that you can get your scalp as fast as possible and thus as safe as possible. I imagine most traders scalp like that (Caan does) because that's pretty much the standard way to scalp. Another way would be like Mugs does it, taking 2-3 ticks at a time but by knowing the direction of the price and not really scalping the noise itself. You can even use the offset to scalp 1 tick at a time, it's a very underused feature that can be much faster than manual scalping in certain situations and markets. Another thing that I had some success with was a bit of a hybrid method (combining scalps and swings), meaning you open a position and exit a portion of it after 1-2-3 ticks, I liked it because it buys you a lot of extra wiggle room on the ladder and a lot less squeaky bum time ( ), but of course the trade-off for something like that is that it's basically butchering your swing position and your swing profit.

If you're doing well with swings like you say (3-8 ticks) you don't really need to bother too much with scalping, other than Cheltenham etc where you can get an excellent return from just 1-2 ticks on bigger stakes. Scalping is a good way to trade if you don't really know the direction of the price and you're only interested in noise with a tight trading range etc, but if you can read the market good enough to swing then I don't think scalping is worth the effort with how the markets act nowadays.

[randn123]

What bothers me is the lack of underlying theory behind all these strategies. I know traders don't care much, but it seems like there is a pretty big hole in academic finance if these phenomenon involved in scalping aren't being explained in a more rigorous way.

[adryan87]

Would you agree with me that the 1 tick scalping technique is either a myth or doesn't work anymore ?

Well neither really, it can still be done but it's just more difficult because you need very good (what I call) ladder mechanics. With scalping in general you kind of have to pick your battles (like handicap races etc), ideally you want to scalp the noise and swing real price movements. Last year I pretty successful as a pure noise scalper before I switched to footy, because I didn't really know how to swing properly on horses, and the real money is of course in the swings. I know a couple of other traders who are also pure scalpers so it can still be done, one of them has a blog with daily P/L updates and basically no losing days, if you're interested in reading it you can PM me.

Speaking of scalping mechanics themselves, most people simply try to be first in queue on both sides and they scalp that way, they achieve that by first putting some stakes on ticks where there's little or no money (or anywhere really if you're willing to wait) and then they wait for the price to come to them, so when it does come and they think they are about to get matched they try to time it so they get matched on both sides at the same time. Not sure if I explained it properly, but in short it's all about managing your queue position and being aware exactly where you are in the queue so that you can get your scalp as fast as possible and thus as safe as possible. I imagine most traders scalp like that (Caan does) because that's pretty much the standard way to scalp. Another way would be like Mugs does it, taking 2-3 ticks at a time but by knowing the direction of the price and not really scalping the noise itself. You can even use the offset to scalp 1 tick at a time, it's a very underused feature that can be much faster than manual scalping in certain situations and markets. Another thing that I had some success with was a bit of a hybrid method (combining scalps and swings), meaning you open a position and exit a portion of it after 1-2-3 ticks, I liked it because it buys you a lot of extra wiggle room on the ladder and a lot less squeaky bum time ( ), but of course the trade-off for something like that is that it's basically butchering your swing position and your swing profit.

If you're doing well with swings like you say (3-8 ticks) you don't really need to bother too much with scalping, other than Cheltenham etc where you can get an excellent return from just 1-2 ticks on bigger stakes. Scalping is a good way to trade if you don't really know the direction of the price and you're only interested in noise with a tight trading range etc, but if you can read the market good enough to swing then I don't think scalping is worth the effort with how the markets act nowadays.

Hi..i am interested..I can't send you a PM,i don't know why

[Kai]

Hi..i am interested..I can't send you a PM,i don't know why

PM about what? That post and thread was from 6 years ago.