Each way arbitrage

The sport of kings.
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Anbell
Posts: 2004
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

asahenettleton wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:13 pm
Is there a way to learn the number of non-runners from Bet Angel?
Depending on exactly what you want, this might help
viewtopic.php?t=20854
asahenettleton
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:30 pm

Thank you for the suggestion. My purposes are perhaps more modest in one sense. I am not interested in changes of the number of runners over time. I just want to know from Bet Angel the current EW terms, such as '1/5 odds, 3 places'. The existence of non-runners makes the current number of runners an unreliable guide to the terms.
asahenettleton
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:30 pm

I seem to have found an answer to my own question, though one that is only in BetAngel rather than Guardian-Excel. The saddle cloth column in BetAngel is the initial runner number.  BetAngel shows not simply those actually running (as Guardian-Excel does), but all of those originally running.  In a current example, the saddle cloths range from 1 to 14, but the runners listed in Excel are just 1 to 12, because (as it happens) runners 3 and 11 have dropped out
EachWayOddsfromSaddleCloth.png
.

It would be great if Guardian would start telling Excel the maximum saddle cloth number of the original runners. That would help one to know the EachWay terms, which can be non-obvious due to non-runners. (It might also be useful in place markets, though there it is easier to figure out the number of paying places even in exceptional circumstances such as 7 runners and 3 places due to a late dropout---just use the books.) It would require only one extra cell, not a whole column, and would require no help from BetFair.
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Dallas
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asahenettleton wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:24 pm

It would be great if Guardian would start telling Excel the maximum saddle cloth number of the original runners. That would help one to know the EachWay terms, which can be non-obvious due to non-runners. (It might also be useful in place markets, though there it is easier to figure out the number of paying places even in exceptional circumstances such as 7 runners and 3 places due to a late dropout---just use the books.) It would require only one extra cell, not a whole column, and would require no help from BetFair.
Guardian has always been able to do this, you just need to enable it from the 'Excel' tab in your main settings

Saddle Cloth.JPG
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asahenettleton
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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:30 pm

In response to my previous post (if I may), BetAngel support kindly informs me that one can display the saddle cloth in Excel using BetAngel settings.
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gazuty
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This anecdote may be apocryphal. My understanding is that in the early days when betfair first came to Australia, on course bookies were still offering "traditional" each-way betting. That is if a horse was 4/1 (or 5 in decimal) for the win then the pay out for the place (usually top 3 in Australia )would be 1/4 or evens (or 2 in decimal). Those bookies had such a large overround in the win (probably 140%+) that they didn't need to concentrate on the place markets. Say the favourite is 4/1 (the old style "each way the field") the true odds of that horse finishing in a place (in Australia, top 3) is much shorter than evens - could be something like 1.3.

So $100 each way at 5 is $50 @ 5 for the win and $50 at 2 for the place. You then laid $76 @1.3 for $26 across the board on the place and let the win bet ride. Even if you laid off the win bet @ 6 and took $41 for $9 loss there, you're up $17.

My understanding is a few blokes got together and pounded those on course each way bookies in the early days of betfair in Australia - they actually let the win bet "ride" and hedged the place on betfair and a million or so was ripped out of those old style bookies until they wised up.

Anyone know if this is indeed how it happened in Australia (this was all before my time of discovering betfair) and did anything like this happen in the UK?
TraderFred
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:55 am

gazuty wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:07 pm
This anecdote may be apocryphal. My understanding is that in the early days when betfair first came to Australia, on course bookies were still offering "traditional" each-way betting. That is if a horse was 4/1 (or 5 in decimal) for the win then the pay out for the place (usually top 3 in Australia )would be 1/4 or evens (or 2 in decimal). Those bookies had such a large overround in the win (probably 140%+) that they didn't need to concentrate on the place markets. Say the favourite is 4/1 (the old style "each way the field") the true odds of that horse finishing in a place (in Australia, top 3) is much shorter than evens - could be something like 1.3.

So $100 each way at 5 is $50 @ 5 for the win and $50 at 2 for the place. You then laid $76 @1.3 for $26 across the board on the place and let the win bet ride. Even if you laid off the win bet @ 6 and took $41 for $9 loss there, you're up $17.

My understanding is a few blokes got together and pounded those on course each way bookies in the early days of betfair in Australia - they actually let the win bet "ride" and hedged the place on betfair and a million or so was ripped out of those old style bookies until they wised up.

Anyone know if this is indeed how it happened in Australia (this was all before my time of discovering betfair) and did anything like this happen in the UK?
Still happens over here, the place side of the book if often over broke. It’s known as “bad each way”.

You can take advantage, though it’s just like arbing, you will soon get your account closed for doing so.
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