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The sport of kings.
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Anbell
Posts: 2007
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

waytogo78247 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:27 am
Thanks that is something I have wanted to know for a lot of years OR I may have read this before.

7.3 A ‘transaction’ shall include all bets placed and all failed transactions. Transaction Charges only apply to customers recording more than 5000 transactions an hour.

Where I have taken "include" to be "on top of" something else like requests to the API for market updates etc. It really is not written very well and is not an "all inclusive" statement of what a transaction charge is.

So, I need not fret if I have guardian with 30 races updating more then once per second.
Getting data from BF is not a 'transaction' - only if you place a bet or change a bet, or try to place a bet that is rejected (e.g. if you 'take sp all' every refresh) or other things like that.

It was changed about 6 months ago to go from 1000 to 5000 per hour, but they broadened the definition to include failed transactions. There were some hours where I'd do 100,000 'transactions' an hour that I didnt mean to do, and werent accomplishing anything, just because of poor coding.
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

I am getting there, eventually, to understand this.

Rejected bets?

If I have a bet in a market that is looking for something specific and that has not been met is that a rejected bet?

Ex1

I have a horse in a market that I do not want to bet til 20 mins to post time but it is in Guardian and that market will be refreshing all day.

Ex2

I have a horse where I want a minimum of 4/1. The same that it is in gaurdian and refreshing all day.

Ex3

I have a horse that I want to bet as soon as the book% hits 105% (or lower). This one could have been refreshing all night.

Are all or any of these classed as rejected bets as conditions were not met?

That would lead to a lot in one day.
Anbell
Posts: 2007
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

waytogo78247 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:57 am
I am getting there, eventually, to understand this.

Rejected bets?

If I have a bet in a market that is looking for something specific and that has not been met is that a rejected bet?

Ex1

I have a horse in a market that I do not want to bet til 20 mins to post time but it is in Guardian and that market will be refreshing all day.

Ex2

I have a horse where I want a minimum of 4/1. The same that it is in gaurdian and refreshing all day.

Ex3

I have a horse that I want to bet as soon as the book% hits 105% (or lower). This one could have been refreshing all night.

Are all or any of these classed as rejected bets as conditions were not met?

That would lead to a lot in one day.
I think that you generally dont need to worry about the transaction charge. It affects fewer than 1% of accounts. This should be the least of your concerns, and if you get a bill it probably wont be for very much, and if you are a limit case you can generally get a reprieve on your first week of charges.
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Thank You Anbell you have been a great help and I have a much better understanding now than I have had in the last 15+ years.
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xtrader16
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:00 pm

I wouldn't expect your 'Practise' trading to be replicated 100% once you go on the "live" version of the software. It just doesnt work like that. You might have a stake of £300 that gets matched in practise quite easily but in reality it might not get matched at all in live trading.

My advice to you is, go into live trading as quick as you can and use £10 stakes and work it upwards to £300 but dont expect your practice trading to be replicated in Live trading conditions. Practise is there, I feel, to run stategies and get used to the software/automation rather than see how much you can win in a one off trade.

Good Luck.
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

xtrader16 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:34 pm
I wouldn't expect your 'Practise' trading to be replicated 100% once you go on the "live" version of the software. It just doesnt work like that. You might have a stake of £300 that gets matched in practise quite easily but in reality it might not get matched at all in live trading.

My advice to you is, go into live trading as quick as you can and use £10 stakes and work it upwards to £300 but dont expect your practice trading to be replicated in Live trading conditions. Practise is there, I feel, to run stategies and get used to the software/automation rather than see how much you can win in a one off trade.

Good Luck.
Good advice. I have noticed in weak markets that this could be a problem but my stakes are a liabilty of £300, so a bet would only placed over £300 if odds on.

Today though has been a hard hit wake up call where in a span of just three races there were two unexpected huge last minute, and I mean last minute drifters losing £78 and £45.35 followed in the next race by a moderate loss of £20 basically wiping out the profit.

Now currently standing at

Runs 54
Wins 38 70.37%
Profit 17.38

This small probably loss after comms will be wiped out in a few seconds as right now am on a moderate drifter.

Those two huge last minute drifters I watched in the market and one went on to win and the other easily went below the odds I wanted in running, so both those losses could have turned into gains if going in running. Maybe I should think of that rather than a stop loss if they have drifted a huge amount of ticks by off time. I am not talking of doing this every runner but only for those that have a massive tick drift. A stop loss could ease those losses, but those two races would still be losers and how many other have drifted only to come back in??

That moderate drifter has gone off now and came back in a bit and lost just £2.08.

Back to xtraders point. Even a £30 bet at 9/1 may be difficult to fill in some markets and do get the drift (hate that word today ) that orders will not get filled quite as efficiently with real cash as they do in practice mode.

I will keep things as they are until at least the end of the week and then take another look as there should be about 100 or so samples to look at. If there is a slight loss, so be it and could always go live cash with liabilty bets of as low as £70 and not bet above 33/1 (to stop bets of under £2 attempting to fire, those wover 33/1 are very few and far between anyway).
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Just a quick note on my last post.

The two massive drifters I only forecast to happen every 250-300 races and now I have two in just 54 races and within three races to boot. I appear to have got that one, at least at this point, wrong!
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xtrader16
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:00 pm

so both those losses could have turned into gains if going in running. Maybe I should think of that rather than a stop loss if they have drifted a huge amount of ticks by off time.
Please DO NOT do this unless your maximum risk is 0.5% of your entire account. I've smashed up more accounts than anybody chasing trading losses IR. Bad idea.
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Derek27
Posts: 23477
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

waytogo78247 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:12 pm
Those two huge last minute drifters I watched in the market and one went on to win and the other easily went below the odds I wanted in running, so both those losses could have turned into gains if going in running. Maybe I should think of that rather than a stop loss if they have drifted a huge amount of ticks by off time. I am not talking of doing this every runner but only for those that have a massive tick drift. A stop loss could ease those losses, but those two races would still be losers and how many other have drifted only to come back in??
2 is a very small survey to be changing your method of trading!
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ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

xtrader16 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:27 pm
rather than a stop loss if they have drifted a huge amount of ticks by off time.
The problem is letting something go wrong by a huge number of ticks. You need to manage your position and not get in such a mess that you're tempted to do something irrational like going in-running. You might get your tenner back 10 times in a row but the next one will either plant itself on the start line or f-off into the distance and win, and staking 00s to win a tenner will feel like a stupid thing to do.

Yes things come back but why sit on them hoping they will, just get off and if it does come back then you can always jump on again.
Anbell
Posts: 2007
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

waytogo78247 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:12 pm
xtrader16 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:34 pm
I wouldn't expect your 'Practise' trading to be replicated 100% once you go on the "live" version of the software. It just doesnt work like that. You might have a stake of £300 that gets matched in practise quite easily but in reality it might not get matched at all in live trading.

My advice to you is, go into live trading as quick as you can and use £10 stakes and work it upwards to £300 but dont expect your practice trading to be replicated in Live trading conditions. Practise is there, I feel, to run stategies and get used to the software/automation rather than see how much you can win in a one off trade.

Good Luck.
Good advice. I have noticed in weak markets that this could be a problem but my stakes are a liabilty of £300, so a bet would only placed over £300 if odds on.

Today though has been a hard hit wake up call where in a span of just three races there were two unexpected huge last minute, and I mean last minute drifters losing £78 and £45.35 followed in the next race by a moderate loss of £20 basically wiping out the profit.

Now currently standing at

Runs 54
Wins 38 70.37%
Profit 17.38

This small probably loss after comms will be wiped out in a few seconds as right now am on a moderate drifter.

Those two huge last minute drifters I watched in the market and one went on to win and the other easily went below the odds I wanted in running, so both those losses could have turned into gains if going in running. Maybe I should think of that rather than a stop loss if they have drifted a huge amount of ticks by off time. I am not talking of doing this every runner but only for those that have a massive tick drift. A stop loss could ease those losses, but those two races would still be losers and how many other have drifted only to come back in??

That moderate drifter has gone off now and came back in a bit and lost just £2.08.

Back to xtraders point. Even a £30 bet at 9/1 may be difficult to fill in some markets and do get the drift (hate that word today ) that orders will not get filled quite as efficiently with real cash as they do in practice mode.

I will keep things as they are until at least the end of the week and then take another look as there should be about 100 or so samples to look at. If there is a slight loss, so be it and could always go live cash with liabilty bets of as low as £70 and not bet above 33/1 (to stop bets of under £2 attempting to fire, those wover 33/1 are very few and far between anyway).
2 quid is not the minimum
https://betangel.kayako.com/article/105 ... et-allowed
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Quite a few overnight replies. thank you all.

The consensus appears to be to use a stop loss even though it could turn a lot of winning trades into losing trades just to stop a couple of horrendous drifts and losses.

I am still just going to watch how these do as there was a slight recovery yesterday although still a poor day without changing anything.

Runs 66
Wins 46 69.70%
Profit 49.01

I always look at the poor trades and look for a reason for their failure. Form/ability I could not find anything and have seen a few video's where Peter says "it's how the market works". I did notice a few of the losing trades DID get betting attention, but was before I entered the market and as traderx pointed out that I may not get matched as easily with real cash. Also there may not have been much available to bet when those market moves happened.. The two huge drifters were very late last minute and could just be Trader vs Trader vs Trader vs Trader rather than backers as it was so late.

It was not just a poor trading day. Out of 20 just 4 won @3/1, 2/1 twice and 11/10. So, trading instead of betting outright was a better choice for this particular day.
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

I wonder if this one would have matched with real cash.

1:40 Gowran Park Powerfull Blue

Bet @95.00 for £3.19

Lay @75.00 for £4.04

In practice mode it took just 11 seconds to match and Green. +£0.85 :roll:
waytogo78247
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

After Today.

Runs 94
Wins 65 69.15%
Profit -43.72

Terrible. I did notice a pattern yesterday and the weaker selections have not done too well.

<6 Runs 27
Wins 12 44.44%
Profit -122.24

The very stong have been even worse for the drifters

>13 Runs 14
Wins 7 50.00%
Profit -203.14

The mid pack

"6-13" Runs 53
Wins 46 86.79%
Profit 281.66

The figures are a strength ratio for betting expectation and the ones >13 I would have thought would be the best, but after studying the graphs they were bet well before I got into the market. The weaker (<6) selections were rollercoasters throughout the day and the mid pack, which are the majority, were the ones bet not too long before the off.

OK. This is a backfit but the logic is sound and what actually happened to each of the three groups also makes sense. The strong ones get bet early, the weak ones do get support then drift then get supported again etc etc and the mid pack have been bet very late when the market has settled.

I would be well happy sacrificing 40% of the plays if the mid pack stayed the same although I think that will weaken somewhat as it does look too good to be true.

Yet again. If I had bet all the strong ones early the success rate would have been 100%. The weaker ones I would have to have guardian look at the market for an hour or so and decide the best time to jump into the market. The latter would take some writing as I am new to Betangel and I think I should be looking at Signals and/or servants? to quantify this group.
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The Silk Run
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:53 am
Location: United Kingdom

キットカット ;)
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