In play - tracksiders, how do they do it?

[Buz]

Being Australian based, UK in-play betting is something I've pretty much ignored but with the introduction of the fast RTV pics I've started to take a bit of an interest (knowing of course that I still have a significant latency disadvantage being on the other side of the world).

My question is, how the hell are tracksiders (and drone guys I guess) so damn efficient? I've done a little tracksiding here when it was in its infancy but my strategy was simply back what I thought was the likely winner which involved either looking at the number on the saddle cloth, looking at the colours (or both) then identifying that runner on my laptop then placing a bet. Sounds convoluted but all up took maybe 1.5 seconds, and that was good enough to make a modest profit.

Watching the UK video and markets is a different story, these guys are on another level. Fallers are INSTANTLY pushed out to 1000, in a close finish where there are 7 across the track, the likely winner is always identified very quickly.

How the hell are they doing it? I could watch the favourite (or any one horse) at the exclusion of all else and be extremely quick but this happens with every single horse, even in huge fields.

Are the tracksiders operating in groups where for example they say 'ok I'll watch the 1-3, you watch the 4-6' and so on. It seems to defy belief that a solo operator could instantly identify which horse has actually fallen or poked it's nose ahead, either identify it's number or silks and instantaneously place a bet.

Is it a case that they memorise the silks and numbers of every horse in every race and use a gaming mouse or similar? Or am I missing something here? Seems to be a game of memorisation and speed rather than any real race reading skill! It just blows my mind how quick and accurate they are and I'd love to know how they go about it. Won't do me any good over here obviously but it's really quite impressive!

[ShaunWhite]

Fallers are INSTANTLY pushed out to 1000, in a close finish where there are 7 across the track, the likely winner is always identified very quickly.

It's not just tracksiders, Betfair provide GPS data too for some racing and that can feed into automation decisions.

[Archery1969]

Someone once told me that it’s not that difficult or rocket science because their bets are already in the market. They just cancel the ones they don’t want matched, which I was told is slightly quicker than place a new bet.

I have no idea if the above is true or not as not really looked into in-play betting/trading but it does Lina make sense when you see 4 or 5 horses all together near the line in a 5f race.

I’m sure someone hear knows the answer but may not be willing to share.

[Derek27]

Someone once told me that it’s not that difficult or rocket science because their bets are already in the market. They just cancel the ones they don’t want matched, which I was told is slightly quicker than place a new bet.

I have no idea if the above is true or not as not really looked into in-play betting/trading but it does Lina make sense when you see 4 or 5 horses all together near the line in a 5f race.

I’m sure someone hear knows the answer but may not be willing to share.

As you say it's not rocket science. I'm sure it's true as there's no delay for cancelling a bet, but it would only work with laying losers (which is likely to be more profitable) and cancelling bets on likely winners. The old 1.01 backers would still have to place bets.

[Archery1969]

Someone once told me that it’s not that difficult or rocket science because their bets are already in the market. They just cancel the ones they don’t want matched, which I was told is slightly quicker than place a new bet.

I have no idea if the above is true or not as not really looked into in-play betting/trading but it does Lina make sense when you see 4 or 5 horses all together near the line in a 5f race.

I’m sure someone hear knows the answer but may not be willing to share.

As you say it's not rocket science. I'm sure it's true as there's no delay for cancelling a bet, but it would only work with laying losers (which is likely to be more profitable) and cancelling bets on likely winners. The old 1.01 backers would still have to place bets.

Derek,

The person who told me was a market maker, so yes, laying but cancelling bets he didnt want matched etc.

Is that true for all markets, no delay when cancelling , if yes then that potentially throws up a very good soccer/football strategy which i never thought about because i always thought there was a delay.

[Derek27]

Someone once told me that it’s not that difficult or rocket science because their bets are already in the market. They just cancel the ones they don’t want matched, which I was told is slightly quicker than place a new bet.

I have no idea if the above is true or not as not really looked into in-play betting/trading but it does Lina make sense when you see 4 or 5 horses all together near the line in a 5f race.

I’m sure someone hear knows the answer but may not be willing to share.

As you say it's not rocket science. I'm sure it's true as there's no delay for cancelling a bet, but it would only work with laying losers (which is likely to be more profitable) and cancelling bets on likely winners. The old 1.01 backers would still have to place bets.

Derek,

The person who told me was a market maker, so yes, laying but cancelling bets he didnt want matched etc.

Is that true for all markets, no delay when cancelling , if yes then that potentially throws up a very good soccer/football strategy which i never thought about because i always thought there was a delay.

Other's will correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there's never a delay for cancelling unmatched bets. Betfair don't really have the right to hold your money, even for a few seconds if the bet's unmatched and you want to cancel it.

[napshnap]

You're right, there's no any "artificial" delay for canceling.

[ShaunWhite]

because i always thought there was a delay.

Whatever game you play it helps to know the rule book inside out.

[Euler]

Someone once told me that it’s not that difficult or rocket science because their bets are already in the market. They just cancel the ones they don’t want matched, which I was told is slightly quicker than place a new bet.

I have no idea if the above is true or not as not really looked into in-play betting/trading but it does Lina make sense when you see 4 or 5 horses all together near the line in a 5f race.

I’m sure someone hear knows the answer but may not be willing to share.

It's common practice on Tennis and Football to stack up orders across the market ahead of price movement and cancel those you don't need. Different on Racing as you can see price action before it happens if you can read a race.

[Buz]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. I can definitely see how cancelling lay bets would work but I'm still perplexed how the backers are identifying horses so quickly that are often slightly obscured etc. I guess that's why they are making the big bucks and I'm not

[rik]

Well if you have a speed advantage you probably want to move the market by actively placing bets, rather than hoping someone matches yours. Your unlikely to get matched on a back bet if the runner makes progress in a race or on a lay bet if the runner fell at a hurdle etc...
Im sure one way for them to be fast is programming hotkeys so they just have to press the runner number and automatically lay 1000 or a low back bet is placed.
Also on the bigger races there will be many people competing for speed so if one guy is a bit slower or misses a faller another one might react a bit better, so that should be why the delays are fairly consistent.
Compared to live video if there is a faller the price will move to 1000 just slightly ahead of me seeing it on the screen which means live video is just a bit more than a second behind, used to be worse.

[napshnap]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. I can definitely see how cancelling lay bets would work but I'm still perplexed how the backers are identifying horses so quickly that are often slightly obscured etc. I guess that's why they are making the big bucks and I'm not

Shaun answered your question viewtopic.php?p=269556#p269556. You cant compete with a well written bot that has such advantage.

[Kai]

HFT FTW

You can learn to race read quickly but why not try and learn to read the ladder as well, in my opinion it's a bigger advantage than speed advantage!

[ShaunWhite]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. I can definitely see how cancelling lay bets would work but I'm still perplexed how the backers are identifying horses so quickly that are often slightly obscured etc. I guess that's why they are making the big bucks and I'm not

Shaun answered your question viewtopic.php?p=269556#p269556. You cant compete with a well written bot that has such advantage.

And it's the case that these people are dedicated professionals at the very top of their game, of course they're going to be good at it.

I seriously think that most people who "discover" Betfair having not been involved in betting before think it's populated by a bunch of amateur mug punters. Gambling is an mature industry, you're up against people who've dedicated their whole careers to it, that's why it's hard for a rank amateur to get a foot in the door.

[Derek27]

HFT FTW

You can learn to race read quickly...

Proper race-reading skills take years to aquire.