Last Ever Post....Its been Hell... I have to admit it. Goodbye.

The sport of kings.
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Shaun - that's an inspired idea. Sharing the P&L with the missus. Just thinking about it scares the hell out of me. That will definitely keep me on the straight and narrow! Can't believe I didn't think of that.
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

xtrader16 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:28 pm
Here is my P&L sheet since posting my resignation letter @ 15:20 - I sat there and read through it and realised what has been missing. I traded a few more a races with lower stakes and here are the results. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.
That's a tidy P&L mate - decent stuff.

Just a thought re going in play. Maybe you could have an automation / servant running in the background that will 'Take SP on all Unmatched Bets' armed to trigger after your bets have been placed and just before the event goes in play...?
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xtrader16
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:00 pm

zippus wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:44 pm
xtrader16 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:28 pm
Here is my P&L sheet since posting my resignation letter @ 15:20 - I sat there and read through it and realised what has been missing. I traded a few more a races with lower stakes and here are the results. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.
That's a tidy P&L mate - decent stuff.

Just a thought re going in play. Maybe you could have an automation / servant running in the background that will 'Take SP on all Unmatched Bets' armed to trigger after your bets have been placed and just before the event goes in play...?
Ive tried everything mate its an internal issue. I even cut the plug off my TV and threw the HDMI out of the window. Two days later i was logging onto Betfair video and watching the race on a tiny screen whist I have a 27" 4kTv and a Racing Uk account in front of me.

I asked BA to switch off all access to the ladders at 00:00:00 but it isn't feasible. Its not really their problem but that is the only solution I can think of apart from maintaining my own discipline. It is only one in 6 races I'd say but losing £300 laying a 4/1 shot isn't unusual for me. Doesnt matter how many of those lay bets win when that one hits you you feel it.
Tetras
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 pm

xtrader16 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:33 pm
Yer.....thanks Shaun. I think if I asked my wife to go through my Betfair account she'd divorce me anyway. I only ever use exposable income and nothing ever goes unpaid, its better than drinking or having a drug habit. I dont have any kids or a mortgage.

On another topic, speaking to a lot of traders on the forum I am starting to wonder how many people are making a profit on their 30 day P&L. We never really see peoples P&L and im starting to believe that 80%+ are not in profit over the last 30 days.

I am £2100 down over the past 3 months. It represents about 25% of my total exposable funds after all my bills are paid. This is down to me making a profit on 5 out of 7 days and then smashing the account up on one race, several times over 3 months. Going IR is a real issue for me I need to nail it down.

There you go. I've got nothing to hide from anybody - except the missus. :)
Not sure if you're wanting contrary posts, but my opinion is that P&Ls with big losses aren't particularly meaningful, no more than most of the profitable ones. You're probably not lazy like you described, if you don't learn it's more likely because of what's being activated in your noggin' that is causing you to repeat the behaviour and the only way to address that is to minimise exposure by changing your approach and I don't mean the 'trading' part either. Mentors are great and all, but they can't change your psychology.

Following on from that, the mental/emotional triggers or however want to phrase it, of big stakes are completely different to small stakes and depending on your trading style, it can be brutal. If you're being guided by someone else, then the decisions aren't resting on you, so it won't push your buttons in the same way.
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xtrader16
Posts: 411
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I am openminded to be honest. More than most people. I have no issue with contrary opinions. I think seeing somebodies P&L sheet over 30 days or 3 months gives that person credibility. If you look at my 3 month losses you might not give my opinion much credit but if it was £2k in profit im sure you would give me more time when discussing an issue.

My point was I am now starting to believe that 80% of people trading Betfair Markets are losing money. Whilst 10-20% left are cleaning up the profits. The P&L sheets separate the wheat from the chaff.
zippus
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Tetras makes some great points. Peter has put out some excellent content on trading psychology and openly admits he needed to learn how to take risks / accept losses as opposed to being loss avoidant. Don't know if you've seen them but this one is a decent watch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3t3uytTBCk

Hope it helps.
Tetras
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:23 pm

xtrader16 wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:26 pm
I am openminded to be honest. More than most people. I have no issue with contrary opinions. I think seeing somebodies P&L sheet over 30 days or 3 months gives that person credibility. If you look at my 3 month losses you might not give my opinion much credit but if it was £2k in profit im sure you would give me more time when discussing an issue.

My point was I am now starting to believe that 80% of people trading Betfair Markets are losing money. Whilst 10-20% left are cleaning up the profits. The P&L sheets separate the wheat from the chaff.
What gives someone credibility, to me, is if what they say makes sense and most traders go through the same difficulties (or the same type of thing, but in a different guise). My 30 day P&L, at different times, has looked very different and I often made more money when I was a bad trader and consistently losing in the long-term.

I had to figure out what my version of a bad trader looked like and that's what I can share with you. My feeling (and it's just an impression) is that your triggers are similar to what mine were, often nothing to do with your trading at all, like boredom, over-stimulation, putting too much into it, general emotional regulation type stuff. Trading has helped me be a lot more intentional about what energy I bring to trading (and most else). It's like a relationship of sorts.
stueytrader
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

Interesting thread and posts.

Pretty sure the points would resonate with any trader, for at least some period of their 'career' in trading.

For me, a turning point was realising I didn't have to follow what everyone else did - follow the same rules, markets, exit approaches and risk strategies - basically to invent all of that for myself.

I tried to copy others for a long time, it never worked. Doing my own thing has helped me a lot instead.
stueytrader
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

Should add, I did have some fairly dark times along my journey, before getting to more solid ground.

I could have ruined myself a couple of times, in doing my 'own thing' - so had to eliminate some areas of course along the way.

But I find trying to be a template model of a good trader is often not a good model, as everyone else is trying that and the market already knows so much.
stueytrader
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

Tetras wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:43 pm

I had to figure out what my version of a bad trader looked like and that's what I can share with you. My feeling (and it's just an impression) is that your triggers are similar to what mine were, often nothing to do with your trading at all, like boredom, over-stimulation, putting too much into it, general emotional regulation type stuff. Trading has helped me be a lot more intentional about what energy I bring to trading (and most else). It's like a relationship of sorts.
I very much like your point there. It is very true that energy fluctuates during trading, but more importantly that will knock directly onto how you process and perform.
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Euler
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Location: Bet Angel HQ

stueytrader wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:47 pm
Interesting thread and posts.

Pretty sure the points would resonate with any trader, for at least some period of their 'career' in trading.

For me, a turning point was realising I didn't have to follow what everyone else did - follow the same rules, markets, exit approaches and risk strategies - basically to invent all of that for myself.

I tried to copy others for a long time, it never worked. Doing my own thing has helped me a lot instead.
Everybody has differing tolerances to risk based on their background and life experiences. So I would always recommend people play with strategies but find their own angle on it.
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Kai
Posts: 6092
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Trading is a bit like smoking, it's harder to quit than people think :) From what I've seen at least, it goes beyond sunk cost fallacy and ego etc.
stueytrader wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:47 pm
I tried to copy others for a long time, it never worked. Doing my own thing has helped me a lot instead.
Good for you Stuey, spot on for me!

Get stuck in, build your own market experience, form your own opinions, make most of the mistakes yourself, learn from mistakes ffs, pick up what you can from other traders, find trading concepts that work and build a trading style that suits you around markets you actually like.

Or, if that sounds like too much effort.... you can just watch a few random Youtube videos and try to copy paste everything you see. And by "everything" I only mean the measly 10% that you can actually see at that point.
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

I've said this many times before.....people who gravitate to trading from punting, have the greatest problems with closing out markets pre-event for a loss

I know this from personal experience and speaking to many traders over the years

As a punter, you get a run for your money....it doesn't matter if your horse falls at the first, or gets beaten at the post. It doesn't matter if you back over 2.5 goals, and at 60mins it's 1-1 or 0-0.....you've always had a run for your money. But, closing out for a guaranteed loss before an event has even started, is an incredibly difficult mental hurdle for punters to navigate.

Everyone can get a green screen, even if its for pennies, but it's the red screens that separates the men from the boys in trading
I believe discipline and psychology are far more important qualities in trading than being a number cruncher, or a sports anorak

I had to retrain my brain to become a full-time trader....if you cannot control what you think, you'll never control what you do
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Realrocknrolla
Posts: 1903
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:15 pm

LeTiss wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:18 pm
I had to retrain my brain to become a full-time trader....if you cannot control what you think, you'll never control what you do
Pretty much the same as myself Tiss!

But I have to admit, I still enjoy a punt!
stueytrader
Posts: 863
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:47 pm

Euler wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:16 pm
stueytrader wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:47 pm
Interesting thread and posts.

Pretty sure the points would resonate with any trader, for at least some period of their 'career' in trading.

For me, a turning point was realising I didn't have to follow what everyone else did - follow the same rules, markets, exit approaches and risk strategies - basically to invent all of that for myself.

I tried to copy others for a long time, it never worked. Doing my own thing has helped me a lot instead.
Everybody has differing tolerances to risk based on their background and life experiences. So I would always recommend people play with strategies but find their own angle on it.
Yes, totally agree, and that a key area you have to decide on yourself is the element of risk.
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