I have provided some suggestions to Betfair to avoid this in the future (in particular for tennis, but it can also work for several other markets).
What I proposed to BF is that in the lead up to tournaments for tennis (golf and other similar events) there a defined "antepost" market - and a completely separate and defined completed/ nominated field market which commences when the first point of round 1 is played (or perhaps once the field is locked just prior to Round 1).
If there is a withdrawal prior to the tournament commencing (ie first point played of round 1), then that player (runner) is of course out and is a loser in the Antepost market. Using Djokovic in my example, Djokovic did not win the AO 2022 tournament, back bets on Djokovic lose in the tennis Antepost, and lay bets on Djokovic win on the Antepost. Djokovic would not have been in the completed field market - which would be a separate market.
Obviously, we all understand the main issue is not someone who has undertaken a back to lay or lay to back solely on the voided player - all those bets being voided end up at zero. It is when other actions have been taken, a person has layed the field in what they think is a 110% overround (but when, say Djokovic does not play they discover they've layed the field in an 80% market and just given money away) or a person has pressed the “cash out” button and doing so does not result in a “simple” back to lay/ lay to back operation but a more complex operation against the rest of the field.
My understanding based on comments here and comments on other forums is that the use of the cash out button with Betfair does not simply back to lay or lay to back a single selection. Cash out takes a more complicated approach (more complicated than the way Bet Angel looks at things when greening). So a person pressing the cash out button ends up with actions on the rest of the field. Those actions are not voided when the relevant player is voided out of the market. Again based on what I have read elsewhere it seems that pet fair maybe assisting people who suffer a loss by pressing the cash out button on the website or in the app. They will not be assisting people who laid the field thinking there was a 110% overround.
Betfair did give a warning in certain communications (eg VIP newsletter) about the Djokovic situation. I don’t look at the BF website and have never used the cash out button so I don’t know if there was anything directly written against the market itself other than of course the rules which are there for all to read and comply with.
Peter/ Dallas - One idea might be that we have a false markets thread which might be particularly helpful to newbies. We could then take some of the posts out of this thread and move them over to the false market thread. I remember wayback in my early days reading about the false market on the first goalscorer markets for soccer and people racked up huge liabilities thinking they were all green against an overround.
Australian Open 2022
Sorry I did reply earlier but something went wrong and the reply disappeared. It would be a very long list of lay bets that were generated by the cash out. I will give you a summary first and then follow up with more detail if you need it. In summary then the only individual bets I placed were lays against Zverev. The cash out thengenerated lay bets against every other competitor it seems. The only bets voided were the cash-out-generated lays on Djokovic (which amounted to over £700 of stakes, so my position on any other competitor winning worsened by £700). Of course if it were racing then rule 4 would have scaled down the remaining liabilities and compensated largely or fully). Let me know if more detail would help you to help me !Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:32 pmAre you able / happy to list the individual bets and the voided bets on here? I think I know what Betfair did and why this happened, but I need somebody to share the information.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:21 pmI placed a lay bet on Zverev. Then a day or two later saw I was being offered a cash out that would guarantee a profit whatever the outcome. Clicked cash out and saw my profit position "locked in" at that point - but then it went pear-shaped when Djokovic withdrew. Then looked into how the cash out had been applied and saw it had done lay bets on all but Zverev !
If you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
I remember from my match betting days on football where i'd use the cashout button on a team 2up, and i remember frequently the exchange used to lay draw & opposition, always confused me back then, why it didn't always just back the layed team...Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pmIf you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
Very good point Peter. Now it makes perfect sense to me that BF would use XM for the cash out calculation. And when the book is over broke you get all sorts of problems because an AI calculator greening via overbroke is a no brainer - of course this also demonstrates why AI has limitations - it can’t deal with rules that lead to a mistake and situations that can be avoided by a human brain.Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pmIf you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
Thanks. I have just extracted the relevant history and forwarded it to support, referencing both our forum usernames and this thread. What you state above is exactly what happened. I put a lay on one and cashed out via cash out button and this created lays on everything else. OK I did repeat this a couple of times but was "trusting" cash out to be just that (as it is with the bookies) and not a trap !Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pmIf you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
Received an email from Betfair that as an act of goodwill they will be removing all the bets placed on the market that gave rise to my "unexpected position". Mightily relieved and delighted with their customer service! Seems the point I have been making about the unfair consequences of their cash out option was valid ! This is what they are presumably fixing before starting to settle lay bets on losers.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:09 amThanks. I have just extracted the relevant history and forwarded it to support, referencing both our forum usernames and this thread. What you state above is exactly what happened. I put a lay on one and cashed out via cash out button and this created lays on everything else. OK I did repeat this a couple of times but was "trusting" cash out to be just that (as it is with the bookies) and not a trap !Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pmIf you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
I guess thats why the market has been suspended for so long. I am pleased for you but concerned with how BetFair will resolve the problem. I presume they are stepping into your shoes on the bets and not voiding them completely as that would then affect other traders positions for no reason.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:43 pmReceived an email from Betfair that as an act of goodwill they will be removing all the bets placed on the market that gave rise to my "unexpected position". Mightily relieved and delighted with their customer service! Seems the point I have been making about the unfair consequences of their cash out option was valid ! This is what they are presumably fixing before starting to settle lay bets on losers.
That's good news, not just for you but it suggests they realise it's their cock-up. I hope they will reimburse everybody who used cashout but it's going to be quite expensive as they'll have to honour the other side of the bets.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:43 pmReceived an email from Betfair that as an act of goodwill they will be removing all the bets placed on the market that gave rise to my "unexpected position". Mightily relieved and delighted with their customer service! Seems the point I have been making about the unfair consequences of their cash out option was valid ! This is what they are presumably fixing before starting to settle lay bets on losers.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:09 amThanks. I have just extracted the relevant history and forwarded it to support, referencing both our forum usernames and this thread. What you state above is exactly what happened. I put a lay on one and cashed out via cash out button and this created lays on everything else. OK I did repeat this a couple of times but was "trusting" cash out to be just that (as it is with the bookies) and not a trap !Euler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pmIf you put a lay on one and then cashed out. The book was overbroke so XM and cash out would have gone for a cashout by laying everything else. So that would be Betfair's fault. If you did that on Bet Angel it would have reversed your position to cash out and not tried to be 'clever' about it.
If you want to drop a note to support with the bet history from Betfair we would be interested in looking at it to confirm.
Agree. It would be unfair on others if they voided both sides of the bets so I am fairly sure they will be taking the hit themselves.tumby wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:53 pmI guess thats why the market has been suspended for so long. I am pleased for you but concerned with how BetFair will resolve the problem. I presume they are stepping into your shoes on the bets and not voiding them completely as that would then affect other traders positions for no reason.tul0dhf wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:43 pmReceived an email from Betfair that as an act of goodwill they will be removing all the bets placed on the market that gave rise to my "unexpected position". Mightily relieved and delighted with their customer service! Seems the point I have been making about the unfair consequences of their cash out option was valid ! This is what they are presumably fixing before starting to settle lay bets on losers.