Tiger Woods

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sionascaig
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Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:18 pm

Adultery is just as sinful today as it ever was. It's an absolute betrayal of one's spouse, and always will be. To even suggest otherwise is to indulge in self-deception of the worst kind.

CS
In European nations, marriage was traditionally considered a civil institution. ... Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings, but it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church formally defined marriage as a sacrament, sanctioned by God

==> so in the context of "christian" values really nothing to do with the church until they decided to take control of marriage and make it a sin to have sexual relations outside wedlock... This is about power & control & nothing to do with "values" no matter how they market it.

Betrayal of your spouse is betrayal - there is absolutely no reason to bring "christianity" into it...
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jimibt
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Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:42 pm

sionascaig wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:02 pm
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:18 pm

Adultery is just as sinful today as it ever was. It's an absolute betrayal of one's spouse, and always will be. To even suggest otherwise is to indulge in self-deception of the worst kind.

CS
In European nations, marriage was traditionally considered a civil institution. ... Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings, but it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church formally defined marriage as a sacrament, sanctioned by God

==> so in the context of "christian" values really nothing to do with the church until they decided to take control of marriage and make it a sin to have sexual relations outside wedlock... This is about power & control & nothing to do with "values" no matter how they market it.

Betrayal of your spouse is betrayal - there is absolutely no reason to bring "christianity" into it...
+1 - perfectly summed up
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Morbius
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greenmark wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:49 pm
Morbius wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:54 pm
superfrank wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:49 pm

In Jack Nicklaus' day people and society generally had higher standards.

In today's post-Christian western world anything goes and the results shouldn't come as a surprise.

It's unfair to judge Tiger by the moral standards of another era. I don't think anything he did is particularly shocking today.


I wasn't judging him by the moral standards of another era and its equally unfair to let him off the hook even slightly simply because people in previous generations had as you rightly say higher standards generally. Let me give a different if not better example then. He comes a long way short of the moral values practiced by many sportsman within his own profession in the modern world let alone in all other sports. There are tens of millions of men all over the world who are good husbands and fathers and role models despite society differences. I think we can all very much agree on that.

The phrase "particularly shocking" is vague because what one person defines as shocking, another doesn't. But as I said, if you were the father of his ex then would you dismiss his numerous infidelities and drug taking when your daughters and grandaughters health and life are at risk from this man and that's before he even gets behind the wheel. Heaven knows what else his exes could divulge if they dared to speak or could even speak legally.

Do I respect him for his achievements? How could you not respect his tenacity to get to be the best. To attack his own weaknesses so that he had none and dominate a highly competitive sport and winning the 2008 US Open with an injury. His golf CV is immense and cannot be argued against. But as a human, he has the CV of scum until he proves otherwise. His lifestyle is a health hazard to anyone who gets close to him. Chronic infidelity coupled with drug taking leads down some very dark and serious roads and no father worth his salt would ever want that for his own daughter. This is before we even go down the road of saying how much responsibility this man carries as a role model to young kids who would want to emulate him and look up to him and he has failed just as miserably in that as he has succeeded in golf
TBH I think you should cut Tiger (and people like him) some slack. You aren't insulated from issues like infidelity or substance abuse., just because you're rich and famous. Infidelity-wise, come on! He's had women throwing themselves at him for decades. Yes, it is IMO reprehensible to cheat on your life partner. But its hardly unusual. Substance abuse? Well, yes that indicates a deeper problem. Knowing someone in the alcohol counselling arena informs me that the issue is far from simple. Generally, there are other factors other than just being a slob or having a lack of willpower. The addiction is just a symptom/outlet for other deep-seated emotional issues. And being rich/famous is no antidote to that.


Like I said in a previous post if you read it, we are all human and prone to going off the rails and hell knows I've done it more than once. Anybody who hasn't has probably lived in a bubble. But just to generalise it as "infidelity" and saying its common doesn't even come close to what he's done. Obviously he's rich and famous so will be faced with temptations that other men wouldn't but you don't need to be rich and famous to pay for countless hookers do you? Because when it comes to prostitutes, its the bloke who is doing the looking and the booking. Information is viral as we all know and people like him cannot keep shit from leaking out even if you do pay hookers to keep quiet. Like I said, anybody can go off the beaten track but it's the frequency of it that matters. Like I also said, I used to work for an insurance company, people are allowed to have car accidents as mistakes are human and other drivers can contribute to your accident but when there's an accident on a regular basis then any insurance company will refuse the risk......same principle. FFS stop rationalising his behavior and use the principle of Occam's Razor. If he can't keep it in his pants and can't stop taking drugs or driving in a way that endangers life then he can't be a role model for anybody can he hence why many huge companies have dropped him and rightly so. There is a world of difference between expecting someone to be perfect which nobody is and him doing what he has.
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Crazyskier
Posts: 696
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sionascaig wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:02 pm
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:18 pm

Adultery is just as sinful today as it ever was. It's an absolute betrayal of one's spouse, and always will be. To even suggest otherwise is to indulge in self-deception of the worst kind.

CS
In European nations, marriage was traditionally considered a civil institution. ... Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings, but it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church formally defined marriage as a sacrament, sanctioned by God

==> so in the context of "christian" values really nothing to do with the church until they decided to take control of marriage and make it a sin to have sexual relations outside wedlock... This is about power & control & nothing to do with "values" no matter how they market it.

Betrayal of your spouse is betrayal - there is absolutely no reason to bring "christianity" into it...
Actually this is a fair point, assuming 'civil' ceremonies have the same VOWS as Church weddings. I concur that betrayal of anyone in an exclusive relationship is indeed a betrayal, but it seems somehow more of a betrayal when that person happens to be your wife that you have VOWED IN FRONT OF GOD AND MEN to cherish and 'forsake all others'.

As Tiger was married at Sandy Lane in Barbados, I have no idea what vows he took or what part (if any) the Church played in the ceremony, but my point remains about the 'HOLY Matrimony' being a stronger - indeed, the strongest - commitment, ergo any betrayal being even worse for those married in the eyes of God. And what made Tiger's betrayal particularly galling was that Sam was 2 and Charlie had literally just been born a matter of days before!

CS
Trader Pat
Posts: 1998
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Crazyskier wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:06 pm
sionascaig wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:02 pm
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:18 pm

Adultery is just as sinful today as it ever was. It's an absolute betrayal of one's spouse, and always will be. To even suggest otherwise is to indulge in self-deception of the worst kind.

CS
In European nations, marriage was traditionally considered a civil institution. ... Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings, but it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church formally defined marriage as a sacrament, sanctioned by God

==> so in the context of "christian" values really nothing to do with the church until they decided to take control of marriage and make it a sin to have sexual relations outside wedlock... This is about power & control & nothing to do with "values" no matter how they market it.

Betrayal of your spouse is betrayal - there is absolutely no reason to bring "christianity" into it...
Actually this is a fair point, assuming 'civil' ceremonies have the same VOWS as Church weddings. I concur that betrayal of anyone in an exclusive relationship is indeed a betrayal, but it seems somehow more of a betrayal when that person happens to be your wife that you have VOWED IN FRONT OF GOD AND MEN to cherish and 'forsake all others'.

As Tiger was married at Sandy Lane in Barbados, I have no idea what vows he took or what part (if any) the Church played in the ceremony, but my point remains about the 'HOLY Matrimony' being a stronger - indeed, the strongest - commitment, ergo any betrayal being even worse for those married in the eyes of God. And what made Tiger's betrayal particularly galling was that Sam was 2 and Charlie had literally just been born a matter of days before!

CS

Are you a good Christian CS?
greenmark
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Crazyskier wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:06 pm
sionascaig wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:02 pm
Crazyskier wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:18 pm

Adultery is just as sinful today as it ever was. It's an absolute betrayal of one's spouse, and always will be. To even suggest otherwise is to indulge in self-deception of the worst kind.

CS
In European nations, marriage was traditionally considered a civil institution. ... Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings, but it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church formally defined marriage as a sacrament, sanctioned by God

==> so in the context of "christian" values really nothing to do with the church until they decided to take control of marriage and make it a sin to have sexual relations outside wedlock... This is about power & control & nothing to do with "values" no matter how they market it.

Betrayal of your spouse is betrayal - there is absolutely no reason to bring "christianity" into it...
Actually this is a fair point, assuming 'civil' ceremonies have the same VOWS as Church weddings. I concur that betrayal of anyone in an exclusive relationship is indeed a betrayal, but it seems somehow more of a betrayal when that person happens to be your wife that you have VOWED IN FRONT OF GOD AND MEN to cherish and 'forsake all others'.

As Tiger was married at Sandy Lane in Barbados, I have no idea what vows he took or what part (if any) the Church played in the ceremony, but my point remains about the 'HOLY Matrimony' being a stronger - indeed, the strongest - commitment, ergo any betrayal being even worse for those married in the eyes of God. And what made Tiger's betrayal particularly galling was that Sam was 2 and Charlie had literally just been born a matter of days before!

CS
Seems he's a practising but faulty Buddhist, so Christianity is off the agenda if adherence to religion is your point. I could rattle on about religion in general. The formation of the Anglican church, for example. But I'm agnostic so there's no point. All I'd say is most religions have laudable values. Sadly, even Buddhism has been used for an excuse for violence. But also religion has motivated a lot of people to be incredibly selfless. The duality of life, I guess. And Tiger embodies that. Exceptional, dedicated - flawed, debauched.
Trader Pat
Posts: 1998
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

greenmark wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:40 pm
But I'm agnostic so there's no point.
Agnostic?! What a cop out! :P
greenmark
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Trader Pat wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:48 pm
greenmark wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:40 pm
But I'm agnostic so there's no point.
Agnostic?! What a cop out! :P
Not really. Essentially protestant, swerved to Jehovah's Witness. Discovered JW local mentors wouldn't condone blood transfusion for a close relative. That was the end of that. I'm interested in religion and its sociological roots and impacts. And I'm agnostic because I can't look around me and believe this is all accidental. But I baulk at the concept of 2 places of heaven and hell that we go to. Or that there is an almighty power that will smite me should I transgress. But I also envy people that have faith.
Trader Pat
Posts: 1998
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

greenmark wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:01 pm
Trader Pat wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:48 pm
greenmark wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:40 pm
But I'm agnostic so there's no point.
Agnostic?! What a cop out! :P
Not really. Essentially protestant, swerved to Jehovah's Witness. Discovered JW local mentors wouldn't condone blood transfusion for a close relative. That was the end of that. I'm interested in religion and its sociological roots and impacts. And I'm agnostic because I can't look around me and believe this is all accidental. But I baulk at the concept of 2 places of heaven and hell that we go to. Or that there is an almighty power that will smite me should I transgress. But I also envy people that have faith.

I was always an athiest even as a kid, never believed any of it. I couldn't reconcile how you reach a certain age and are supposed to stop believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus but still believe in God just because a load of other people do.

Religion is obviously geographical so muslims, christians Hindu's etc... all believe their religion is the best and don't see any irony seeing it that way. I'd have more respect for someone who seeks out and looks to experience other religions like you're talking about but would never feel envy for somebody who has faith as you put it. I have faith too but in people not in deities. My mother has a deep faith and before lockdown I brought her to mass every Sunday so I'd never slag off somebodies belief in God because I can see the comfort it can bring.

Like most things in life I suppose its fine on a personal level but once you start trying to force your beliefs on others that where the problems begin.
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Crazyskier
Posts: 696
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Trader Pat wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:37 pm
greenmark wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:01 pm
Trader Pat wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:48 pm


Agnostic?! What a cop out! :P
Not really. Essentially protestant, swerved to Jehovah's Witness. Discovered JW local mentors wouldn't condone blood transfusion for a close relative. That was the end of that. I'm interested in religion and its sociological roots and impacts. And I'm agnostic because I can't look around me and believe this is all accidental. But I baulk at the concept of 2 places of heaven and hell that we go to. Or that there is an almighty power that will smite me should I transgress. But I also envy people that have faith.

I was always an athiest even as a kid, never believed any of it. I couldn't reconcile how you reach a certain age and are supposed to stop believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus but still believe in God just because a load of other people do.

Religion is obviously geographical so muslims, christians Hindu's etc... all believe their religion is the best and don't see any irony seeing it that way. I'd have more respect for someone who seeks out and looks to experience other religions like you're talking about but would never feel envy for somebody who has faith as you put it. I have faith too but in people not in deities. My mother has a deep faith and before lockdown I brought her to mass every Sunday so I'd never slag off somebodies belief in God because I can see the comfort it can bring.

Like most things in life I suppose its fine on a personal level but once you start trying to force your beliefs on others that where the problems begin.
Patrick, very few people of faith truly believe 'their religion is best'. Far from it, most of us view other religions as simply God by another name. As you openly accept, the values in most belief systems are generally charitable and loving.

With Freemasonry for example, any male of age, with a belief in a Supreme Being and good character can be considered for entry. Only last year I was present at a Sikh 2nd degree ceremony, where the chap swore on his own Holy Book, rather than the Bible. This is just one of many examples of people of one faith respecting the God(s) of others.

And to your last point, no-one here is trying to 'force their beliefs on others' we're simply giving a balanced view of Tiger Woods's behaviour and correcting those who think he's some kind of superhero. On the course, sure. In real life, as a human being? NOPE.

CS
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