Trading What I see !?

[goat68]

Goat, did you trade this evening? I got murdered tonight, whilst yesterday (late afternoon and evening) I felt very much in control and had 11/16 winners. Tonight seemed very volatile, with prices jumping around all over the place. I had a couple of bad losses.

Question: are certain courses more volatile in the evening, such as tonight (Wolverhampton and Chelmsford City)? Do people generally avoid trading them, or just adapt their approach?

Yes, Wol 19:15 loved that race, got 6 winning +1:-3 trades through it

[goat68]

+1 -3 is about a 50/50 chance on pre-off horse racing.

Thanks Euler, that is useful actually given what I have learned, I'm going to apply myself very slightly differently and see where I go.....
Cheers
Goat

It seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist. There is no secret knowledge that others have and don't want to share (not in manual trading anyway).

If you don't mind me saying you seem to be a bit random with your approach. Asking different questions about all kinds of stuff that you don't need be focusing on for now.

You should reduce your stakes right down and that way you wont be as twitchy if the market moves against you, you learn the most from being active in the market and making notes about why X is doing Y.

If your worried about the market going against you then you're over-staking, if you're over-staking and the market moves against you then you learn nothing and it turns into a white knuckle ride hoping your position comes back to you. If you're hoping the position comes back to you then you're not trading, you're gambling. You have to break that cycle and the only way to do that is by putting in the hours and trying to learn something from every trade, especially losing ones.

Ah so my approach seems random to you, it's just like the markets, maybe I am just counter intuitive

[Derek27]

Question: are certain courses more volatile in the evening, such as tonight (Wolverhampton and Chelmsford City)? Do people generally avoid trading them, or just adapt their approach?

I keep notes on how every meeting trades and consult them before trading. Many follow a similar pattern, like Wolverhampton is more volatile than most. Then I adapt my style.

[darchas]

You'll be begging me to become profitable just to stop my persistent wingeing...!!

No shame in taking a break as well if it's starting to get stressful and causing you to feel frustrated. I very much think trading should be fun, we have a short time on earth and staring at a screen for hour after hour isn't necessarily the most mentally and physically healthy and uplifting activity as it is. So you want to enjoy it. Seems like you're trading a lot of races, if you're working for a living as well then that's a lot of time spent away from friends and family and the outside etc. It's all about balance and I think if you feel yourself 'persistently whingeing' then it's a good time to evaluate that balance.

Not saying you're out of balance or anything, just some thoughts. I enjoy trading and as sad as it sounds I like spending time on the ladder prodding and poking and finding the little niches where I can slip in and out pinching a few ticks here and there. I find it fun and engaging even if I can't manage to squeeze any green out of that particular market.

[speedyhamster]

+1 -3 is about a 50/50 chance on pre-off horse racing.

Thanks Euler, that is useful actually given what I have learned, I'm going to apply myself very slightly differently and see where I go.....
Cheers
Goat

It seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist. There is no secret knowledge that others have and don't want to share (not in manual trading anyway).

But if say Mr x invested in a course with a trader who also knows how to teach trading, and you learn what to look for and practice techniques in the Markets, building up market knowledge the time can be reduced by quite a bit. Where as Mr y who just participates in the markets without any training can take much longer and might not even get there at all

[goat68]

You'll be begging me to become profitable just to stop my persistent wingeing...!!

No shame in taking a break as well if it's starting to get stressful and causing you to feel frustrated. I very much think trading should be fun, we have a short time on earth and staring at a screen for hour after hour isn't necessarily the most mentally and physically healthy and uplifting activity as it is. So you want to enjoy it. Seems like you're trading a lot of races, if you're working for a living as well then that's a lot of time spent away from friends and family and the outside etc. It's all about balance and I think if you feel yourself 'persistently whingeing' then it's a good time to evaluate that balance.

Not saying you're out of balance or anything, just some thoughts. I enjoy trading and as sad as it sounds I like spending time on the ladder prodding and poking and finding the little niches where I can slip in and out pinching a few ticks here and there. I find it fun and engaging even if I can't manage to squeeze any green out of that particular market.

Great post, a very important point to make, life balance. I'm trying to keep that balance, only traded 25 races this week in total, been busy on other things... Got a trail half marathon coming up, assuming it happens...
Cheers

[speedyhamster]

Question: are certain courses more volatile in the evening, such as tonight (Wolverhampton and Chelmsford City)? Do people generally avoid trading them, or just adapt their approach?

I keep notes on how every meeting trades and consult them before trading. Many follow a similar pattern, like Wolverhampton is more volatile than most. Then I adapt my style.

Good advice, good job i am fast and can run away from the cat Arriba Arriba Andale

[Maturin]

Thanks Derek, I'd not really thought about certain courses having particular traits, I was more concentrating on race types, regardless of the course.

[darchas]

You'll be begging me to become profitable just to stop my persistent wingeing...!!

No shame in taking a break as well if it's starting to get stressful and causing you to feel frustrated. I very much think trading should be fun, we have a short time on earth and staring at a screen for hour after hour isn't necessarily the most mentally and physically healthy and uplifting activity as it is. So you want to enjoy it. Seems like you're trading a lot of races, if you're working for a living as well then that's a lot of time spent away from friends and family and the outside etc. It's all about balance and I think if you feel yourself 'persistently whingeing' then it's a good time to evaluate that balance.

Not saying you're out of balance or anything, just some thoughts. I enjoy trading and as sad as it sounds I like spending time on the ladder prodding and poking and finding the little niches where I can slip in and out pinching a few ticks here and there. I find it fun and engaging even if I can't manage to squeeze any green out of that particular market.

Great post, a very important point to make, life balance. I'm trying to keep that balance, only traded 25 races this week in total, been busy on other things... Got a trail half marathon coming up, assuming it happens...
Cheers

No problem. I'm glad you took it in the spirit it was intended. I've been there myself. Beating myself up and annoyed because I was 17p down on the day or something. Thankfully I realised how ridiculous that was, but it's hard I know. Ironically I turned a corner with my trading when I stopped trying to make money. I just saw it as a game. Some fun. Then I started to enjoy things and also stuff I hadn't seen before became more visible to me because I didn't have this distraction of 'making money'. And then after a bit I started to realise wow I'm actually making money, and it was more like a happy byproduct of what I was doing rather than the goal. Probably sounds a bit trite that I realise, but just another perspective to think about.

[Trader Pat]

Thanks Euler, that is useful actually given what I have learned, I'm going to apply myself very slightly differently and see where I go.....
Cheers
Goat

It seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist. There is no secret knowledge that others have and don't want to share (not in manual trading anyway).

But if say Mr x invested in a course with a trader who also knows how to teach trading, and you learn what to look for and practice techniques in the Markets, building up market knowledge the time can be reduced by quite a bit. Where as Mr y who just participates in the markets without any training can take much longer and might not even get there at all

It completely depends on the individual but there are plenty of profitable traders on here who never bought an ebook or invested in a course. I'm not one of them by the way! I did a couple of courses with Peter back in the day and they really helped me look at things in a different way and were definitely worth the time, travel and investment. However I got much more out of the second one than the first one, and that wasn't down to Peter's teaching but more down to where I was in my own journey. I was still emotionally attached to my trades back then so it didn't matter who was teaching me I was doomed to fail. By the time I did the second course I had managed to overcome that so was in a much better mindset to learn.

[Trader Pat]

Ah so my approach seems random to you, it's just like the markets, maybe I am just counter intuitive

Its not a criticism just an observation. I know how tough it can be when you're starting out and how easy it is to overthink stuff and suffer from information overload.

[speedyhamster]

It seems to me that you're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist. There is no secret knowledge that others have and don't want to share (not in manual trading anyway).

But if say Mr x invested in a course with a trader who also knows how to teach trading, and you learn what to look for and practice techniques in the Markets, building up market knowledge the time can be reduced by quite a bit. Where as Mr y who just participates in the markets without any training can take much longer and might not even get there at all

It completely depends on the individual but there are plenty of profitable traders on here who never bought an ebook or invested in a course. I'm not one of them by the way! I did a couple of courses with Peter back in the day and they really helped me look at things in a different way and were definitely worth the time, travel and investment. However I got much more out of the second one than the first one, and that wasn't down to Peter's teaching but more down to where I was in my own journey. I was still emotionally attached to my trades back then so it didn't matter who was teaching me I was doomed to fail. By the time I did the second course I had managed to overcome that so was in a much better mindset to learn.

true about the individual, and self taught , but maybe a good trader who knows how to teach should cover mindset and also know about the way people learn?.
But each to there own method.

[Trader Pat]

true about the individual, and self taught , but maybe a good trader who knows how to teach should cover mindset and also know about the way people learn?.

Mindset and being emotionally attached to trades are two different things imo.

In my experience an emotional attachment was opening a trade and no matter what I was seeing in the market to the contrary I would hold my position and sometimes watch the red get bigger and bigger and watch my bank go out the window along with logic. I did that many times and no amount of books on 'mindset' made a blind bit of difference.

Before opening a trade I would look at the market and my mindset would formulate a plan. I could execute the first part of the plan just fine (entering the trade), but the second part exiting the trade was always much more difficult. Once I opened a position I became emotionally attached to it, it was fine when It was a profitable trade I could usually time the exit just right. But when it was a losing trade that's when mindset and logic disappeared I got tunnel vision ignoring everything else going on in the market and just hung on for the ride in the hope it would return to where it started. Sometimes if that didn't happen I would go in play and you can guess the rest.

Its a bit like when Mike Tyson said "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

[speedyhamster]

true about the individual, and self taught , but maybe a good trader who knows how to teach should cover mindset and also know about the way people learn?.

Mindset and being emotionally attached to trades are two different things imo.

In my experience an emotional attachment was opening a trade and no matter what I was seeing in the market to the contrary I would hold my position and sometimes watch the red get bigger and bigger and watch my bank go out the window along with logic. I did that many times and no amount of books on 'mindset' made a blind bit of difference.

Before opening a trade I would look at the market and my mindset would formulate a plan. I could execute the first part of the plan just fine (entering the trade), but the second part exiting the trade was always much more difficult. Once I opened a position I became emotionally attached to it, it was fine when It was a profitable trade I could usually time the exit just right. But when it was a losing trade that's when mindset and logic disappeared I got tunnel vision ignoring everything else going on in the market and just hung on for the ride in the hope it would return to where it started. Sometimes if that didn't happen I would go in play and you can guess the rest.

Its a bit like when Mike Tyson said "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

That makes perfect sense to me as once the person goes above there emotional threshold, the brain will shut off the higher brain functions which seriously effects the ability to think straight . (Yerkes–Dodson law)
But when your subconscious mind automatically handles this (in the zone) this will not be a problem.

[Trader Pat]

That makes perfect sense to me as once the person goes above there emotional threshold, the brain will shut off the higher brain functions which seriously effects the ability to think straight .
But when your subconscious mind automatically handles this (in the zone) this will not be a problem.

For me the going in play just disappeared, I stopped doing it and stopped getting the urge to do it. No idea why!

But I stopped getting emotionally attached to the trades for I think 2 simple reasons. A better understanding of the market helped me make better decisions and see the big picture not just the runner I was trading. And secondly I reduced stakes right down, Its harder to get emotionally attached to a trade when you're risking the price of a mars bar!

It was just then a case of gradually increasing stakes, if I felt any way twitchy I reduced them again. Over time the stakes increased, and the attachment went away in most cases. I still sometimes get attached to a good trade though!