Students

[Iron]

Am I alone in finding annoying the student protesters' 'education is a right, not a privilege' mantra?

Since when it post-18 education a human right?!?

And as educated people, they must realize that there's a limited pot of money, and more money for students means less money for other groups. Do they think that their right to free tuition should be at the expense of more bobbies on the beat or more doctors? I know where I'd rather my taxes went...

Anyway, rant over!

Jeff

[Euler]

They should emigrate to the US and try the education system there. I was shocked when I saw the sums needed to get a decent education out there. Makes the European requirement seem like peanuts. I was amazed at the amount of debt US students have to carry after their education.

I guess most of the world is now on the path to charge more and more for higher education and have less funded by the state. I didn't realise I was so lucky when I was younger.

[bilko]

Not as annoying as people that have an opinion on everything and wish to share this with us.

I will not read your condescending response!

[Iron]

I won't stoop to a condescending response.

Unlike another trading forum I can think of, things are very pleasant here, and I don't plan to poison the atmosphere.

I do like to express my opinions, but that's the purpose of a discussion forum. And I've only received 2 hostile replies to my 600 odd messages, so I can't be annoying that many people...

Jeff

Not as annoying as people that have an opinion on everything and wish to share this with us.

I will not read your condescending response!

[mister man]

i dont want to get embroiled in a row, and imnot sure if the students are right or wrong, but surely the reason the students in the uk are so annoyed, is not so much that they think they deserve a free education, but that the libdems promised no rise in tuition fees pre election, and actually targeted student dominated seats on that basis, leaders and prospective libdem mps signing pledgesa, and now they are in the coalition have abandoned the pledges and promises. I think most people or groups would feel very let down in similar circumstances.

[Iron]

Hi Mister Man

I can understand people's anger at politicians for breaking promises. Labour broke its election promises to students a few years ago, and now the Lib Dems have done the same. It's no wonder the young are so cynical about politics!

But I suspect that, had the Tories won the election outright, the protesters would have still been out on the streets. I get the impression that their main complaint is that they will have to pay for their education, not that the Lib Dems have broken their promises.

BTW, with hindsight, it probably wasn't wise for me to put such a controversial post in the chill out area!

Jeff

i dont want to get embroiled in a row, and imnot sure if the students are right or wrong, but surely the reason the students in the uk are so annoyed, is not so much that they think they deserve a free education, but that the libdems promised no rise in tuition fees pre election, and actually targeted student dominated seats on that basis, leaders and prospective libdem mps signing pledgesa, and now they are in the coalition have abandoned the pledges and promises. I think most people or groups would feel very let down in similar circumstances.

[andyfuller]

I will be the first to admit there are plenty of pointless degrees and people going to uni for the sake of it when they would be far better off going into say an apprenticeship or regular work. But at the same time the country needs to be careful not to discourage people who should be going to uni from doing so as we all as a country need graduates of a high calibre to ensure we are competitive on the global market.

Look at China and what they are doing with higher education and their link ups with the UK based uni's and in the coming decades we will see a significant shift.

I think we need to be very careful with the line that we go down as it has the potential not to only impact on the students who have to pay but in fact upon us all.

Also please don't do the old politician thing of trying to make out that by spending on x y and z will mean less bobbies on the beat or nurses or teachers, it would have you think that the entire public sector is only made up of those three occupations, the public sector is bloated beyond belief and there are many areas that would be much better cut back on as opposed to charging for uni places.

An interesting idea I heard was to make all those that had been to uni in the past for free such as Peter be made to make a contribution from what they earn now if we are going to go down the line of charging current/new students. Because why should the current lot pay and those that have reaped the rewards of the free uni not have to contribute. I think if that were to happen those that dislike the current complaints might join the complaints.

The good old not in my back yard comes to mind at times. Don't forget a lot of those protesting are protesting not for themselves but for the future generations, many of the current protesters will be gone before the charges come in.

[Iron]

Hi Andy

I don't think the current arrangements will put off many people who have intellectual curiosity or the desire to acquire career-enhancing skills. The fact is that they will only have to pay back their loan if or when they are earning a decent wage. Hopefully, though, it will put off people who are at uni just because it's a better option than flipping burgers at McDonalds or sitting on the dole for 3 years.

I'd like to see fewer people going to university:

A. As you point out, university isn't the best option for everyone.

B. The economy needs people with vocational skills. Philosophy degrees aren't particularly useful when it comes to helping British manufacturers compete in the global export market...

C. Degrees have been devalued by the number of people acquiring them. Thirty years ago, a 2:1 in history told an employer that you graduated in the top half of an institution that only seriously intelligent people were admitted to. I'm not sure what it tells an employer these days...

Jeff

I will be the first to admit there are plenty of pointless degrees and people going to uni for the sake of it when they would be far better off going into say an apprenticeship or regular work. But at the same time the country needs to be careful not to discourage people who should be going to uni from doing so as we all as a country need graduates of a high calibre to ensure we are competitive on the global market.

[Iron]

There is only so much money in the pot.

More money for students will mean less money for other things.

That's a brutal but inescapable fact...

I agree that there's waste in the civil service, but hopefully most of the bureaucracy will soon be expunged.

Jeff

Also please don't do the old politician thing of trying to make out that by spending on x y and z will mean less bobbies on the beat or nurses or teachers, it would have you think that the entire public sector is only made up of those three occupations, the public sector is bloated beyond belief and there are many areas that would be much better cut back on as opposed to charging for uni places.

[Iron]

I must be getting cynical in my old age, as I suspect they were protesting for themselves! And let's face it, many of the protesters will have turned up for social reasons or to get that warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from being part of something bigger than yourself!

If I were PM, I'd probably cut off public funding for adult education! Capitalism might not always reward virtue, but neither do any of the alternatives. If people had to pay for their degrees come what may, they might think long and hard about whether a media studies degree is the best use of 3 years of their life...

Jeff

The good old not in my back yard comes to mind at times. Don't forget a lot of those protesting are protesting not for themselves but for the future generations, many of the current protesters will be gone before the charges come in.

[Iron]

I seriously hope that it remains just an idea!

I've got enough outgoings without funding anyone's degree! LOL!

Jeff

An interesting idea I heard was to make all those that had been to uni in the past for free such as Peter be made to make a contribution from what they earn now if we are going to go down the line of charging current/new students.

[andyfuller]

I agree with most of what you have said as per my early post. There are far too many people going or who have been to uni that in reality should not have done.

Those who are at Uni now as I understand it will not be liable for the changes so they aren't protesting for their own good but those of the future, their kids more likely and the kids of today.

Of course with anything like this there are people there not for the true protest but there are plenty who feel very strongly about it so I don't think it should be disregarded. There are many people much older than me who feel very strongly about it as well who were able to take advantage of the free uni times and there are those who enjoyed the free uni times who would think very differently if they were to be back dated billed for their free uni - I think there would then be a lot more sympathy for the likes of those protesting.

Not sure from your last post if you were one who got free uni and it isn't quite clear if Peter(Eluer) also did from what he has said but would you be okay with them bringing in a charge to recoup some of what you got for free, would you still have the same view as your opening post?

There will be plenty of people who are complaining about the current student protests who I am sure would very quickly be outraged if a tax was brought in on them - thats what I meant by NIMBY.

[andyfuller]

Also something else to keep in mind is that those that had the free uni and have enjoyed the advantages of that free education all their life are many of the people responsible for the utter mess this country is now in and they are now turning round saying sorry but the good times are over - we had them all, now you lot and your kids and their kids can pick up the tab as we leave. Thanks for the fun but sorry you can pay for it.

[Iron]

I went to uni before tuition fees had been introduced, so in that sense it was free.

And no, I wouldn't be happy about effectively being charged retrospectively for something I was told at the time was free! My taxes over the years have paid for the things I've received FOC from the state.

As regards your last question, I'd like to think that my views on social matters aren't formed in response to my personal circumstances.

Jeff

[quote="andyfuller"]
Not sure from your last post if you were one who got free uni and it isn't quite clear if Peter(Eluer) also did from what he has said but would you be okay with them bringing in a charge to recoup some of what you got for free, would you still have the same view as your opening post?/quote]

[CaerMyrddin]

I've been reading this thread very curiously, but as I wasn't properly informed, I couldnt' comment. When I woke up the english student's protest was on the news, so now I can get my nose in

Well, I think that throughout Europe the youngsters are facing more or less the same kind of problems. It was very impressive to see many kids on France's streets when they had that strike due to the chance on when you can retire. The facebook generation kids worried with their retirement? No way!

Basically they are very upset because they get crappy wages and no social benefits. The same is happening in Spain and Portugal, so I think things won't be very different in the UK?

Many of them can't formalize it properly so basically they protest. But I think we have a very strong conflict between generations. They went to Uni (and that makes unemployment lower) get crappy degrees that won't make their future any better. They can work 12 hours a day (like I did in the past) to get a lousy wage and no social benefits. They look to their parents' generation and can't really understand why they are complainting? I can't, yesterday there was a huge stike here but all of my friends went to work. Basically those who were on strike have high rewards and they can afford to be on strike.

Well, last topic, can't agree on that retroactive fee on Uni. I went to Uni myself, but think that it isn't affecting my judgement. Basically having more graduates makes a country richer in the long term. The problem is when a country is financing degrees that add nothing to economy or society and are only lowering unemployment and causing frustration. And btw, how hard is it to get a good plumber? One that knows what he is doing, that gets to the job on time, etc?