EU Membership Referendum (Brexit)

[superfrank]

Why even Emily Thornberry doesn't understand Labour's Brexit stance
https://youtu.be/CSa2wvJCIEc

[Dallas]

We'll go to the EU negotiate a much better deal than the Torys
Bring it back and put it to the people and advise they vote against it

You couldn't make this up

[ShaunWhite]

Labour's position is quite clear and not hard to understand.

They want a 2nd ref.
On that 2nd ref there must be an offer of a deal.
Depending on the deal they'll either support it or choose to oppose.

The principal being that you should offer choices without necessarily approving of all of those choices yourself. If they didn't do that then the deal on the 2nd ref would be the Tory deal.

.... I think

[ShaunWhite]

Well, if he refuses to go back and ask for a deal as instructed to do so by Parliament then he could end up in court and prison.

Rumour has it he'll try and save face in some way by sending Raaaaab. Then technically he didn't ask, parliament would have asked.

[ruthlessimon]

he cant be taken to court and sent to prison if he goes back, asks for an extension and then veto's it because those are the rules under the European parliament as all 27 have to agree.

Surely that tempts ya to back No Deal? (or something correlated)

Problem is, whether he's actually bold enough to veto himself - is he genuinely that committed, I dunno. Maybe just before the summit lay No leave 31st - cos if he does veto, that'll spike like hell!! - & if he doesn't it'll be a fraction of a loss

[BetBuddy]

he cant be taken to court and sent to prison if he goes back, asks for an extension and then veto's it because those are the rules under the European parliament as all 27 have to agree.

Surely that tempts ya to back No Deal? (or something correlated)

Problem is, whether he's actually bold enough to veto himself - is he genuinely that committed, I dunno. Maybe just before the summit lay No leave 31st - cos if he does veto, that'll spike like hell!! - & if he doesn't it'll be a fraction of a loss

I think he might just go for it. What does he have to lose. Go down as the shortest ever serving PM (no pun) or go out guns blazing. He could also have another Tory call a vote of no confidence, he only need to lose by 1 vote. Take could take another 4 weeks, in the meantime what would happen, a unity government and ask for an extension until who knows when. Macron is not stupid, he knows full well that this could keep coming back again and again. He may just say, enough is enough and fcuk off to an extension. Then Parliament would basically have no option but to revoke article 50 and that would potentially cause a very damaging period in GB political history.

[BetBuddy]

Well, if he refuses to go back and ask for a deal as instructed to do so by Parliament then he could end up in court and prison.

Rumour has it he'll try and save face in some way by sending Raaaaab. Then technically he didn't ask, parliament would have asked.

But what would happen if Boris then vetoed the request as as member of the EU 27 is entitled to do ? Wouldn't the EU say, fcuk this, let them go ?

[superfrank]

We'll go to the EU negotiate a much better deal than the Torys
Bring it back and put it to the people and advise they vote against it

You couldn't make this up

The real reason for their position is that they want a 2nd referendum with a 3-way question that splits the Leave vote.

The public have already rejected Remain. If there was a 2nd referendum then Remain should not be an option.

Lady Nugee must think the peasants are thick as two short planks.

[Nero Tulip]

Labour's position is quite clear and not hard to understand.

They want a 2nd ref.
On that 2nd ref there must be an offer of a deal.
Depending on the deal they'll either support it or choose to oppose.

The principal being that you should offer choices without necessarily approving of all of those choices yourself. If they didn't do that then the deal on the 2nd ref would be the Tory deal.

.... I think

You're right, it's really not hard to understand with a clear head, there's nothing wrong with their logic. I just think 99% of people around the country are so mangled by their biases that the wood is very much hidden by the trees. Like the trader on a losing run who cannot think logically, and it's working purely off their position size... allowing their position to manage their thoughts. Same for both sides, both are polar, both seem relatively understandable.

bbcqt last night was an exercise is diabolical logic from all sides, it was actually harrowing to watch. Someone would initiate a relatively logical position and then proceed to get argued down by utter nonsense, both ways. had to switch it off, it was pathetic. social media is full of this, a quick scan of the bbcqt hashtag shows stuff that is far worse than the above, most pathetic of all though, is people tagging audience members with views that were literally the opposite of what they said...just to suit their own argument. literally punch drunk from bias. people need to sober up, take back control of mental faculties.

[Kafkaesque]

We'll go to the EU negotiate a much better deal than the Torys
Bring it back and put it to the people and advise they vote against it

You couldn't make this up

The real reason for their position is that they want a 2nd referendum with a 3-way question that splits the Leave vote.

The public have already rejected Remain. If there was a 2nd referendum then Remain should not be an option.

Lady Nugee must think the peasants are thick as two short planks.

If public pressure started to grow to legalise some drugs currently illegal, parliament decided to put it to a public vote for whatever reason, and legalise won...only for reality to be mayhem to follow. A sharp rise in use of worse drugs, overdoses, and crime. Would it then also be "the end of democracy" to have a second vote or even overturn the result?

Who has decided that one referendum is a decision to be upheld forever and ever against common sense?

Everyone outside the UK are falling over laughing at your democracy in action and there doesn't seem to be enough shovels in the World to keep digging your hole bigger. Yet there's a huge issue in taking a biiiiiiig step back as a population and review what has been learned in three years of political chaos. And then deciding again.

Claiming to have learned nothing in three years and being hardcore in denial that the whole populace has learned a massive amount of new things in that time is just plain a cop-out and an outright tell that you're incapable of reflection based on real events and a slave to biases.

[BetBuddy]

We'll go to the EU negotiate a much better deal than the Torys
Bring it back and put it to the people and advise they vote against it

You couldn't make this up

The real reason for their position is that they want a 2nd referendum with a 3-way question that splits the Leave vote.

The public have already rejected Remain. If there was a 2nd referendum then Remain should not be an option.

Lady Nugee must think the peasants are thick as two short planks.

If public pressure started to grow to legalise some drugs currently illegal, parliament decided to put it to a public vote for whatever reason, and legalise won...only for reality to be mayhem to follow. A sharp rise in use of worse drugs, overdoses, and crime. Would it then also be "the end of democracy" to have a second vote or even overturn the result?

Who has decided that one referendum is a decision to be upheld forever and ever against common sense?

Everyone outside the UK are falling over laughing at your democracy in action and there doesn't seem to be enough shovels in the World to keep digging your hole bigger. Yet there's a huge issue in taking a biiiiiiig step back as a population and review what has been learned in three years of political chaos. And then deciding again.

Claiming to have learned nothing in three years and being hardcore in denial that the whole populace has learned a massive amount of new things in that time is just plain a cop-out and an outright tell that you're incapable of reflection based on real events and a slave to biases.

There is nothing wrong with our democracy. Remainers would clearly state that it’s working as it should.

But I can assure you that if they win as seems certain that the country will not be brought back together in the next 20 or so years.

Many will join far right groups and some will take matters to the extreme.

But that’s a democracy and many will argue a price worth paying.

I fear that Joe Cox death wont be the last after the dust has settled.

There’s allot of angry people out there and will be for some time to come......

[Nero Tulip]

An observation I've been having since all this began... Two things great traders do -

they are able to change their mind without a second thought if it is logical to do so,
they assess situations on a rolling basis, in order to update their internal conditional pricing of upside/downside.... ~ the chance of 'x' occurring is... then not only will - 'x' happen, but more importantly - by 'x' amount.

neither of these are socially acceptable, they are logical though. if you are a 'markets' orientated person, you want / see the merits in having options/chances/outcomes continuously, and you want to be able to change your mind based on new data, or provide the market/actors a chance to do so, such that there can be mean reversion, or movement towards efficiency whichever way that may be... there is no efficiency or accuracy without the ability to move/confirm.

the referendum has led to a never before seen level of nonacceptance of the above, it seems public derision follows those displaying either of these attributes. an example would be the lib dem lady on last night, who was asked what would she do if the public voted leave again, as if it would be some sort of disgrace to her party, or an assault on common social decency or would somehow make her look stupid, i don't remember what she said, but to a trader that counter argument should be obvious nonsense imo.... that's the only opinion i'm offering, not in support of lib dems, but of the continuous updating of collective opinions, the chance to update your own bayesian equations.

[superfrank]

Who has decided that one referendum is a decision to be upheld forever and ever against common sense?

We had to wait 41 years and have multiple EU treaties forced on us before the people were given a say on our relationship with Europe. General Elections were no good as Lib/Lab/Con all favoured the status quo. Other European countries that did have a say were quickly forced to have repeat votes until they supplied the "right" answer.

If Remain had won the referendum do you think they'd have been any further debate or another vote? No, of course there wouldn't have been. We were told at the time of the referendum (by the Remain supporting govt) that the decision was "A once in a generation decision" - see Page 15.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... the-uk.pdf

Your post is typical of the pseudo intellectual rubbish used to try to justify overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history.

I don't give a stuff what the rest of Europe thinks of us. Their collective record on democracy is nothing to write home about.

[BetBuddy]

Who has decided that one referendum is a decision to be upheld forever and ever against common sense?

We had to wait 41 years and have multiple EU treaties forced on us before the people were given a say on our relationship with Europe. General Elections were no good as Lib/Lab/Con all favoured the status quo. Other European countries that did have a say were quickly forced to have repeat votes until they supplied the "right" answer.

If Remain had won the referendum do you think they'd have been any further debate or another vote? No, of course there wouldn't have been. We were told at the time of the referendum (by the Remain supporting govt) that the decision was "A once in a generation decision" - see Page 15.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... the-uk.pdf

Your post is typical of the pseudo intellectual rubbish used to try to justify overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history.

I don't give a stuff what the rest of Europe thinks of us. Their collective record on democracy is nothing to write home about.

+1

[Nero Tulip]

another random observation... a large problem is that the outcome of no deal / deal is very much opaque... there are projections from people that supposedly know what they're talking about, but as we know especially here, most people are not good at assessing the impacts or chances of things and just as bad at admitting to that. until the outcome is resolved either way, they/we (I have no idea) are going to struggle.... most people in that situation will double down on their beliefs and not give enough weight to uncertainty.