General Election 2019 (UK)

[Euler]

Overriding impression from tonight, if democracy is so great how come we've got this shower to choose from.

Fair point.

[jamesg46]

If the Torys can afford to spend in January then why can't they spend some now? I've been waiting 18months for an operation I need asap so don't tell me the NHS isn't on its arse yet again after 10yrs of underfunding.

Pure unadulterated blackmail.

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

[ShaunWhite]

Overriding impression from tonight, if democracy is so great how come we've got this shower to choose from.

Fair point.

I think "The Nation" can come together and unite in that. I agreed with what you said about the centrist vacuum, libdems had that nailed until they went mental with the revoke the vote stance, and then seemingly no other coherrent policies.

The exchange seems to be a microcosm of society, there are those who take enough for their needs and those who aren't happy unless they've emptied the pockets of everyone around them. Money supply is finite and if you take two slices of pie then someone else goes hungry, I hope you remember that when you're cashing up on a Saturday night

[jamesg46]

Overriding impression from tonight, if democracy is so great how come we've got this shower to choose from.

Fair point.

I think "The Nation" can come together and unite in that. I agreed with what you said about the centrist vacuum, libdems had that nailed until they went mental with the revoke the vote stance, and then seemingly no other coherrent policies.

The exchange seems to be a microcosm of society, there are those who take enough for their needs and those who aren't happy unless they've emptied the pockets of everyone around them. Money supply is finite and if you take two slices of pie then someone else goes hungry, I hope you remember that when you're cashing up on a Saturday night

+1

[greenmark]

If the Torys can afford to spend in January then why can't they spend some now? I've been waiting 18months for an operation I need asap so don't tell me the NHS isn't on its arse yet again after 10yrs of underfunding.

Pure unadulterated blackmail.

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

We all accept an annual increase (above inflation) in the NHS budget is inevitable. Are you suggesting that in a 'real terms' cut in budgets that commercial organisations are taking a bigger piece of the pie?

[ShaunWhite]

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

I don't especially care why they can't afford enough surgeons, all I know is that they can't. Oh well, just another day-to-day issue the filthy rich don't have to worry about, so they don't.

[jamesg46]

If the Torys can afford to spend in January then why can't they spend some now? I've been waiting 18months for an operation I need asap so don't tell me the NHS isn't on its arse yet again after 10yrs of underfunding.

Pure unadulterated blackmail.

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

We all accept an annual increase (above inflation) in the NHS budget is inevitable. Are you suggesting that in a 'real terms' cut in budgets that commercial organisations are taking a bigger piece of the pie?

I think it's fair to say that's what I believe, it's not what i know.

[jamesg46]

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

I don't especially care why they can't afford enough surgeons, all I know is that they can't. Oh well, just another day-to-day issue the filthy rich don't have to worry about, so they don't.

I agree, you shouldn't have to care but at the same time I also think that just because somebody has worked hard for they have, they should have to care anymore than you or I.

[greenmark]

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

I don't especially care why they can't afford enough surgeons, all I know is that they can't. Oh well, just another day-to-day issue the filthy rich don't have to worry about, so they don't.

I have friends and relatives in the NHS. They are CONSUMED by providing the best care they can.

[Archery1969]

Is it just me or does anyone else think the NHS is uncerstainable financially, in 10 years time, how much of GDP will it cost ?

Obviously it wouldnt be a vote winner but whats wrong with anyone earning over say £50k paying into a private medical insurance with a Government funded saftey net for those earning below ?

Dont shout all at once.

[Kafkaesque]

So why are the Torys proposing recruiting the 20,000 police officers they made redundant?

Search me. Not needed imo. Just politicking.

Would you have preferred to see the national debt triple instead of only double?!
Living beyond our means and saddling the young and unborn with huge debt is immoral.

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” — Winston Churchill, House of Commons, 22 October 1945.

The socialism, Churchill was refering, isn't at all the same as is being talked about in the current climate (by anyone taken seriously). Just because he was a great statesman and one of the great British people of all time doesn't equate to some random quote being correct or even having any relevance 70+ years later.

Throwing in miseries as part of a modern debate shows more about your world view than the actual world and modern socialism in my honest opinion.

Here's what modern socialism is to me from a very, very personal vantage point. Nearly three years ago my nephew was born with a to this day undetermined genetic disorder. It stunts his growth, motor skills, speech and more, but thankfully has no outward symptoms, ie. he's not sickly or in pain. Still he's nearly three years old, and in all ways 6-9 months. My sister and brother-in-law are educated and have worked their entire lives until this happened, but this has thrown a spanner in everything, they thought their lives would be, and they've had to adjust everything. Which is what life throws at you. But it also comes with many special needs and costs, they would have zero chance of handling themselves. Here's what has happened:

- There has been treatment and tests trying to determine the cause and a potential cure, which is into six figures in pounds.
- They've been granted a wheelchair, customised chairs, a customised "standing device" to hopefully help him stand eventually, and more.
- They have a physiotherapist, occapational therapist, a speech coach, and a nutrionist assigned to at least weekly visits, plus free horse riding and anything else deemed helpful by those professionals.
- Special needs day care with adult to child ratio 1.5 to 1
- They used to live in a two-storey house, which was not an option anymore. The cost of widening door frames at a new house (due to the wheelchair), making the bathroom handicap friendly, and moving costs were paid in full.
- They have a "relief person" coming 8 hours a week.
- For about a year he suffered from sleep apnea, and there was no mask fit for purpose, so he was in danger of choking during night. A person was granted to sit with him for 8 hours each night.

Naturally a non-Norcic welfare state would have provided some of this, yes. We could as the extended have pitched in, even more than we do now, yes. They could have afforded some, but definitely no close to all of this. And it is arguably overkill of state. The consequences, potential or likely depending on point of view, would have been dire. The stress of the situation affecting jobs and home life. Especially since there's an innocent soul, the older sister, in this, who really didn't need a broken home to come from it. Hard enough to grasp at 5-6 years old why mom and dad need sooooo much attention on the younger brother.

I'm biased, but she's one smart cookie and is going to do special things. We're into equations at 6 years as we speak. Not being elitist and pushing; she's just naturally extremely inquisitive, and started asking to have math questions put to her, out of nowhere a few years back when she was learning numbers and found they could be used for more.

A large welfare state will lead to some people taking advantage, being (more) lazy, and (too much) bureaucracy is always a concern. By no means perfect. Maybe not even the ideal. But my sister and brother-in-law were thrown into something out their control, which could have shattered their world. They're good people, who don't deserve the hand dealt. And the little girl in their home most certainly doesn't deserve it. Thanks to where they happen to have been born, they have every chance to make something good of something very unfortunate, and their daughter has every chance to fulfill her potential. I have a few other acquiantances, who - although with somewhat less serious matters - have in times of crisis had their work and home life eased, and potentially saved by the state.

Being there, as a society, when bad things happen to good people is what Nordic welfare states are about to me. If to you, sharing is misery, rather than caring, then bless.

[Kafkaesque]

I'm not so sure it's down to being under funded, I think it's more down to the NHS being milked for all it's worth, as people have mentioned, it's the only budget that has been consistent. I think & I hate to agree with Mr Corbyn that it's more to do with private markets within the NHS extorting it for all it's worth.

I don't especially care why they can't afford enough surgeons, all I know is that they can't. Oh well, just another day-to-day issue the filthy rich don't have to worry about, so they don't.

I agree, you shouldn't have to care but at the same time I also think that just because somebody has worked hard for they have, they should have to care anymore than you or I.

Don't want to speak for Shaun, but he's surely talking about tax dodging and tax havens, plus the politics of wanting politicians favoring low taxes etc.; not caring quite that literally. They don't have to mentally, as it were, care more, and feel bad for others less fortunately. The question is whether they should at the very least pay their fair share, rather than dodge. You're (inadvertently?) equating something as cold and hard as cool cash to caring.

It's a sliding scale, and I'm sure there's some, who make, say low six figures a year, who have worked significantly harder for their position in society and work life, than say someone stacking shelves at Tesco. The issue, imo at least, is more the exclusively filthy rich. Don't want to come of all Marxist - I'm not, promise not even close in fact - but the money in those cases aren't even remotely correlated to the work effort, and it doesn't come from a vacuum. It comes from a capitalist society, with companies, with workers. They should give back to that society.

[ShaunWhite]

I'm surprised it's not on the list of things they would nationalise.

If half of my electric bill, train fare or rent goes to an overseas operator in profits, who's topping up the national coffers?

People cry about £350m a week going to 'Europe' but everything we spend money on these days sees the profit going offshore, billions a week. And then Labour are seen as the bad guys for wanting to stop that happening?! What's so wrong with the profits of our labours being spent on the people who generated that profit? Our kids and elderly need it more than some Oligarch or Foreign state. The argument is investment and competition, but all with a healthy profit margin of course evaporating money from the national purse.

Nationalisation didn't work efficiently before due to low management wages not attracting top quality people, not because it wasn't economically and morally sound. I want our society to own our services and to share the profits from them with us.

The 'Bring back control' mob ought to think about bringing back some of our national infrastucture while they're at it. Why they all think they're free market Tories is beyond me, they'd sell the ground we walk on to the highest bidder.

....not all directed at you, but your aversion to us owning and controlling our own national assets isn't uncommon. It's not Cash in the Attic where everything has its price, some of the stuff Maggie sold had sentimental value and if buying it back costs big money, then so be it.

[ShaunWhite]

Don't want to speak for Shaun, but

The not caring I was talking about was the difference between "I care, but I have alternatives" and "I care, because I have no other choice". When you can buy anything you want privately you can still be a caring person, but it's impossible to understand the feeling of vulnerablity and its easier for promises to become 'tough decisions'. But never as tough for the people making them as the people affected by them.

[Atho55]

I consider this to be one of the root causes of the NHS problems and tbh I did not realise the full extent of the other sectors blighted by it..

https://www.theguardian.com/news/databl ... racts-list