Coronavirus - A pale horse,4 men and ....beer

[gazuty]

We need a better strategy and a better balance.

No such thing really. I see people keep saying that all over the place but don't really offer a solution and that's probably because there just isn't one. We have to work within the current (!) moral framework of the society because anything outside of it will never be accepted. "Just let everyone die" is not technically a solution either (unless it's considered something like "The Final Solution" from 1940s), it's practically just an absence of a solution. Easy to forget that a lot of the worlds richest and most powerful men are the ones being most targeted by the disease, and they won't go down without a fight. I think those that are criticizing the decision-makers the most would ironically be making the very same decisions as well if put in their position, simply because their hands would be tied.

There's not many options within this framework, besides isolating and weathering the storm until we can produce enough masks for everyone, and then slowly and carefully getting back to work in a fully masked society, again until we can get people vaccinated or discover a very effective treatment etc.

If the economy by then gets wrecked beyond repair then just drop the monetary system altogether, this might be a good opportunity to go for a moneyless society or something similar instead. But yeah, good luck pitching that one to everyone As nice as a utopian future might sound, we're much more on course for a dystopian one instead, particularly now if we fail to properly deal with the virus(es).

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

[PDC]

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

Are you under 70 by any chance? Or are you saying that you are happy to flip a coin

Good luck selling that policy and ever getting re-elected!

I don't disagree with your idea necessarily, also I don't think it is too far from the mark with what actual policy is in a round about way, I just don't see how you could ever possibly sell it as an actual policy/plan to the general public. I await your "death manifesto", I suspect it won't be a vote winner

[Kai]

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

Eh, sorry but I don't believe you. Even if you were serious that strategy goes against the Hippocratic Oath so there would't be many around willing to execute on it.

But it doesn't really sound like a strategy, more like good old fashioned selfishness and looking out for number one That's kinda what everyone seems to be doing nowadays, people simply don't want a bunch of old farts ruining their future. Because I don't think you'd be suggesting anything like it if you were 74 years old, or even much older like Shaun

[gazuty]

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

Eh, sorry but I don't believe you. Even if you were serious that strategy goes against the Hippocratic Oath so there would't be many around willing to execute on it.

But it doesn't really sound like a strategy, more like good old fashioned selfishness and looking out for number one That's kinda what everyone seems to be doing nowadays, people simply don't want a bunch of old farts ruining their future. Because I don't think you'd be suggesting anything like it if you were 74 years old, or even much older like Shaun

Obviously talking about death and who we should let die is deeply unpleasant and not something any of us wants to think about on a day-to-day basis. I recognise that.

You don’t believe me and yet we make these decisions every day in our society. We don’t extend life out indefinitely where the cost is too great - there are many life-saving/ extending medicines and treatments that we refuse to provide to older patients. Expensive drugs, transplants etc. Nothing to do with the doctors oath. And remember- first do no harm.

Rather what we are doing this time around is sacrificing the young for the old.

If I live to 70 I’ll be extremely grateful. I almost died on the day of my birth and I have at least a handful of friends who didn’t make it to 40. What they would’ve given to make it to 70. Death stalks us all.

The old and vulnerable should be isolated and we should do everything we can to help them isolate and then we should just cope with it in the rest of our society while we all get on with our lives and some of us get sick and some of us younger than 70 also die that’s all part of life.

[Kafkaesque]

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

If the medicine industry comes up with a vaccine which will be about 50/50 to kill you during testing, can we assume, given how pracmatic you are, that this can be taken as your legally binding promise to sign up?

Even split chance of dying or helping millions if not billions of people. Simple. Probably helps long terms.

Thank you for your bravery.

[gazuty]

Let more people die is my strategy. Take some measures to reduce death, but no where near what we have done. I'm prepared to let more than half the population over 70 die. Simple. Probably helps long term.

If the medicine industry comes up with a vaccine which will be about 50/50 to kill you during testing, can we assume, given how pracmatic you are, that this can be taken as your legally binding promise to sign up?

Even split chance of dying or helping millions if not billions of people. Simple. Probably helps long terms.

Thank you for your bravery.

Don't think so and you miss my point entirely - very unilkely there ever will be a vaccine.

I preserve my genes and my genetic material for the future (its been that way for 200,000 years of human history).

I'd like as much of humanity to go forward at the minimum cost possible.

No sane person signs up for a 50/50 vaccine unless their odds of death from covid19 are well north of that. So sure, test it on everyone older than 100.

And please supply a better argument next time.

[Kafkaesque]

Rather what we are doing this time around is sacrificing the young for the old.

No, what we're doing as scrambling like crazy to avoid this mammoth of a World, we've built from collapsing. We're all complicite. Growth has been king since forever, and we've neglected to check ourselves and prepare for mayhem, which - if not through this then something else - was bleeding obviously coming along, to anyone paying attention. Our system is built where is looks to break down because we can't be productive for a few months. It's our own making and to start sacrificing subsections of the population is disgusting.


Also, could you perhaps pop round my sister's place? She's losing her sh!t these days. You know, nothing big. Just wiith her son, my nephew obviously, of three years, who's got a heart and lung condition, which makes him very high risk right now. Would be lovely if you could explain how you've got this, and that it's okay, because it's just the weak with not long to live, you're offering up to the Gods.

[gazuty]

Rather what we are doing this time around is sacrificing the young for the old.

No, what we're doing as scrambling like crazy to avoid this mammoth of a World, we've built from collapsing. We're all complicite. Growth has been king since forever, and we've neglected to check ourselves and prepare for mayhem, which - if not through this then something else - was bleeding obviously coming along, to anyone paying attention. Our system is built where is looks to break down because we can't be productive for a few months. It's our own making and to start sacrificing subsections of the population is disgusting.


Also, could you perhaps pop round my sister's place? She's losing her sh!t these days. You know, nothing big. Just wiith her son, my nephew obviously, of three years, who's got a heart and lung condition, which makes him very high risk right now. Would be lovely if you could explain how you've got this, and that it's okay, because it's just the weak with not long to live, you're offering up to the Gods.

The strategy is not to throw babies into the volcano to appease the gods.

You are guessing we go to a full societal break down. Maybe.

To extent this, let me know how many people in their 20s and 30s you are willing to sacrifice to suicide as they lose their jobs, business, marriage and home?

[Derek27]

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.

But not if they're over 100?

[gazuty]

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.

But not if they're over 100?

I don't want them to die - but they will - we all will.

I'm just trying to get the focus on the trolley problem, how many people do we save and at what price.

[PDC]

Not posted this for a while, there are much more informative charts available but thought I may as well update it:

Italy - UK.png

[PDC]

The good weather in the UK this weekend and during the week is going to be a real test of how willing people are to stick to "the rules".

I can imagine if you live in a tower block you will be very tempted to get out in the nice weather having been stuck inside so long.

Are people willing to clap but not do what is actually needed to help the NHS???

[Kai]

I'm just trying to get the focus on the trolley problem, how many people do we save and at what price.

By the end of the day you might want to regret opening up that pandora's box, just wait until some of the old timers wake up No amount of post editing can make that sound less harsh.

Tbh to me it sounds like you're semi-bored and just trying to start inflammatory discussions for the sake of it, although I'm aware that prolonged isolation can lead to people losing touch with reality etc so idk whether you're serious or not, but either way I'm not fully buying those arguments and don't want to get baited into it either. Feels pointless to even entertain that discussion, if we go that route then in a few years we might have to make that call about everyone over 40, then there'll only be a few of us left on the forum lol. Older people past a certain point sometimes both need and deserve as much care as young children.

But for the sake of the argument, I'll just say one last thing and I'm out, strictly imho. You say the trolley problem is the issue and that the solution is making a simple decision. But why save a deeply flawed system that obviously doesn't work and needs all sorts of fixing and revamping? I fully agree with Kaf on that one, how can a random virus shut the whole planet down in the first place, and better yet how can our economy and society fall apart after a few weeks of social distancing and binging Netflix? Where's the fail-safe mechanism and why don't we have any in place? Wasn't this scenario only a matter of time with plenty of advance warning?

These are all rhetorical questions of course, but these are the real issues and questions that need sorting asap, certainly not the trolley problem.

It doesn't feel like it at this very moment but we've got far bigger issues than a random bat virus. The plan of sacrificing older demographics sounds something like applying a band-aid to a severed arm or a gunshot wound, it won't really fix anything. If people were genuinely worried about the future of humanity etc then surely they would be thinking at long term solutions and not short term bandaid fixes. That's why like I already said, I think these sorts of thoughts and opinions all for the most part stem from selfishness. And fear too.

The real crisis hasn't even started yet and some people are already willing to write off entire populations. That's the real punchline for me, the very core of the issue, we fall apart far too easily. Not sure about others but that's just too weak and cowardly for my personal liking.

[gazuty]

I'm just trying to get the focus on the trolley problem, how many people do we save and at what price.

By the end of the day you might want to regret opening up that pandora's box, just wait until some of the old timers wake up No amount of post editing can make that sound less harsh.

The real crisis hasn't even started yet and some people are already willing to write off entire populations. That's the real punchline for me, the very core of the issue, we fall apart far too easily. Not sure about others but that's just too weak and cowardly for my personal liking.

Bring on the old timers. Be interesting ... and they’ll be just as self interested.

[wearthefoxhat]

I'm just trying to get the focus on the trolley problem, how many people do we save and at what price.

By the end of the day you might want to regret opening up that pandora's box, just wait until some of the old timers wake up No amount of post editing can make that sound less harsh.

The real crisis hasn't even started yet and some people are already willing to write off entire populations. That's the real punchline for me, the very core of the issue, we fall apart far too easily. Not sure about others but that's just too weak and cowardly for my personal liking.

Bring on the old timers. Be interesting ... and they’ll be just as self interested.

Hi, just woken up...

Just thought I'd post some basic demographic info to see where the UK is at this time.

global.png

UKstats.png

LargestUK.png

The stats will change, but in the great scheme of things, what's happening right now is just a short term blip.

There are some that believe that the old timers are getting their comeuppance as they influenced the brexit vote. When the dust settles, the UK will actually be in a better position to kick start the economy without the EU influence(s).

One important thing to remember is; IT WILL PASS

Each country/govt has a different view (rightly or wrongly). Some jump on it and rigidly control their people, some allow herd immunity to establish, then tighten things up.

I remember "back in the day" when a child got measles in the neighbourhood, the parents would rush over to the house and allow their own children to mix with the one that was infected. The theory was, get it once = immunity. Nowadays, the MMR vaccine covers all bases.