Israel/Palestine conflict

[firlandsfarm]

You need to go back to 1922.

The British and French were responsible for Palestine eventually being dismantled and separated into what you now see on most maps.

Believe it or not but I do fully understand Israel’s anger over what happened last weekend to its citizens, basically the land is not theirs to partition how they wish.

Not on the same scale by any means but while serving in Northern Ireland I grew to hate the Irish after losing mates and seeing what some Irish did on the UK mainland. May sound weird but blowing up people is one thing but blowing up horses turned mine and others in my unit stomachs. Did we take revenge, yes but that’s a story for another day, probably in a court of law.

Israel, indeed has the right to defend itself but what they are planning is not defending, it’s attacking and seeking revenge. In a UK court of law, if your neighbour came around and killed your children, you would be equally guilty of murder or manslaughter if you then killed him. Defending your family would play a big part and you may well get a minimal sentence, depending on if you tried to stop him before/after the fact.

My point, in a civilised society, we are supposed to hold the morale high ground and be better than the ones that wish us harm. Otherwise we are or become no better.

Let’s hope someone is big enough to make ALL see sense. But I fear that won’t happen.

Well said Archery ... The Occupied Territories are named so for a reason!

[firlandsfarm]

Because of the last weekend 90% of the world is on Israel’s side but I not sure they have the morale high ground one bit.

Yes it did but I think the balance is moving as people learn of the history, many for the first time, and see where Israel 'gave' the Palestinians to live.

[firlandsfarm]

Archery you are badly mistaken in my view. There is no reasonable comparison between Israel's perfectly legal and reasonable retaliation, (using War Rules as per the Geneva Convention) to free the hundreds of Israeli hostages, as opposed to the appalling beheading of babies and rape of Mothers over the dead bodies of their children that Hamas did last week!

Of course, any non-terrorist casualties on any side are always regrettable, but given that Hamas are deliberately using Palestinians as human shields, and the fact that Israel has given well over 24 hours written notice with leaflets and letter warning of the action BEFORE it happens, bearing in mind that their hostages are still being tortured and killed by the hour - what else can Israel do?

There is a gulf of difference between the two parties and their behaviour, and this muddying of the waters is what gives credence to Hamas and ISIS! Please don't do that. It's very unhelpful.

CS

Thanks for your view Crazyskier but I have to say you are muddying the waters with your unlimited bias. I picked up the other day that apparently the claimed beheadings and rapes were first reported by I24NEWS and that when a bona fide British journalist asked (more than once) through professional channels for their source they simply did not respond. What is your source for such claims? Likewise, what is your source for your claim that hostages are being "tortured and killed by the hour". The only news I have heard along those lines is that Hamas are claiming it is the Israeli bombings that are killing hostages (and I have no source for that either). This is usual in a war scenario, both sides make claims driven by propaganda.

As for Israel giving notice of action ... really! Giving 24 hours even 72 hours notice for 1.1 million people to evacuate an area is a dark joke and not a realistic attempt to comply with international law. Just look at the trouble the USA (a modern mobile population with top class roads) has when trying to evacuate from a hurricane zone.

[firlandsfarm]

I'm not saying it's right to break the rules of war because your enemy is doing so.

Didn't think you were, I saw you as making comparisons from home.

[firlandsfarm]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Religion has caused more wars in the name of peace than all other reasons for war added together!

[arbitrage16]

Israel is committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza. It's genocide before our very eyes.

To understand where you are in terms of the right/wrong side of history - note that both Ireland and South Africa, and their leaders, have come out in solidarity with Palestine.

[greenmark]

Israel is committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza. It's genocide before our very eyes.

To understand where you are in terms of the right/wrong side of history - note that both Ireland and South Africa, and their leaders, have come out in solidarity with Palestine.

What would we do if an area of England launched 1000's of missiles on the rest of us and rampaged, killing at random and taking hostages? That's serious question not a provocation for an argument. What is Israel supposed to do in the face of a succesful and damaging assault? Let Hamas skulk back to their lair (with Israeli citizens) to plan their next operation?

[sionascaig]

What would we do if an area of England launched 1000's of missiles on the rest of us and rampaged, killing at random and taking hostages? That's serious question not a provocation for an argument. What is Israel supposed to do in the face of a succesful and damaging assault? Let Hamas skulk back to their lair (with Israeli citizens) to plan their next operation?

Give or take a few 1000 missiles it has already happened in the UK.

- c3,500 deaths in the "troubles"

[greenmark]

What would we do if an area of England launched 1000's of missiles on the rest of us and rampaged, killing at random and taking hostages? That's serious question not a provocation for an argument. What is Israel supposed to do in the face of a succesful and damaging assault? Let Hamas skulk back to their lair (with Israeli citizens) to plan their next operation?

Give or take a few 1000 missiles it has already happened in the UK.

- c3,500 deaths in the "troubles"

Granted, but not on one day. Had the IRA/INLA or UDA/UVF done such a thing, imagine the response there would have been.

[sionascaig]

I hate to think..

Would the parallel be lay siege to Ireland, tell everyone in Ireland to decamp to County Kerry and start bombing Dublin to kill the terrorists..

Strangely (or not) that "war" has it elements of religion & land ownership too..

[Crazyskier]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Religion has caused more wars in the name of peace than all other reasons for war added together!

I disagree.

Religions all generally teach tolerance, love and respect, but MEN misusing. misquoting and misinterpreting the extreme elements of religion, have indeed caused much heartache and suffering - 7/7 and 9/11 to name a couple in my lifetime.

EDIT - you could apply that argument to almost ANY war - It's about a twisted ideology that MEN, persuade others is worth killing for. I and billions like me believe God to be love, in it's purest form. See Lewis Hamilton's neck for more info : - )

LH.jpeg

CS

[greenmark]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Religion has caused more wars in the name of peace than all other reasons for war added together!

I disagree.

Religions all generally teach tolerance, love and respect, but MEN misusing. misquoting and misinterpreting the extreme elements of religion, have indeed caused much heartache and suffering - 7/7 and 9/11 to name a couple in my lifetime.

EDIT - you could apply that argument to almost ANY war - It's about a twisted ideology that MEN, persuade others is worth killing for. I and billions like me believe God to be love, in it's purest form. See Lewis Hamilton's neck for more info : - )

LH.jpeg

CS

That's just one side of the coin isn't it?
Religion maps over human nature.
Good and evil, God and the Devil.
But I definately would defend religion as a nett good thing.
Bad people will use every device to justify doing bad things. Most religions (with my weak, agnostic knowledge of religion) don't suggest doing bad things is acceptable.

I do have a big problem with radical islam suggesting that anyone unwilling to accept the teachings of the Koran are infidels and ar thus worthless and can be dispatched with no guilt.
No human should be dispatched with no guilt. Even Pierrepoint said legal execution was nothing more than revenge.

[Kai]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Religion has caused more wars in the name of peace than all other reasons for war added together!

Obligatory lizardmen post

[Derek27]

Religions all generally teach tolerance, love and respect, but MEN misusing. misquoting and misinterpreting the extreme elements of religion, have indeed caused much heartache and suffering - 7/7 and 9/11 to name a couple in my lifetime.

Here's a challenge for you Reverend CS. Tell us one thing the "teachings of Jesus" has taught you that's not obvious to atheists like me, or indeed, the oblivious to the blindingly obvious like firlandfarms.

[Crazyskier]

Religions all generally teach tolerance, love and respect, but MEN misusing. misquoting and misinterpreting the extreme elements of religion, have indeed caused much heartache and suffering - 7/7 and 9/11 to name a couple in my lifetime.

Here's a challenge for you Reverend CS. Tell us one thing the "teachings of Jesus" has taught you that's not obvious to atheists like me, or indeed, the oblivious to the blindingly obvious like firlandfarms.

At the risk of assuming your are being sincere, I would simply say this:

1) Open your mind. (Try to see what others might have gained from this, without any personal prejudices).
2) Open your heart (not easy, I know - mindfulness and meditation help, no alcohol though).
3) Open the world's best selling book.

CS