Charting Analysis (Paralysis!)

[Blondie]

Wondering if someone would be kind enough to help me shortcut the process of trying out thousands of different screen/chart arrangements!

With the myriad of choices Bet Angel so 'kindly' gives me (:D), I am unable to decide which charts to give pride of place in my screens. I have tried 1 min, 2 mins, 5 mins, 15 mins, 30 mins and the all important Day chart from BF....

Finding it hard to stop using any, I have several 'periods' covered with various charts. It's a big headache, so I thought I'd ask in case anyone cares to give me any ideas on which periods to focus on for pre off trading.

I am not using the price envelope even though it seems from PW's videos that he uses this, just seems to have no bearing on things to me, showing my failure, not the chart's! Just looking at price movements (candlesticks or line) and volume. It seems to me volume is by far the most important thing, so I have that brightly displayed.

I suppose my question can be summarised as :

If I am trading the 10 min to 5 min period, should I have a 5 minute chart, whereas when trading to 2 mins (or beyond) should I move to shorter ranges? Or do most of the proper traders here just have a chart they use for the whole pre off period?

Curious for any thoughts from those with bigger brains

[ShaunWhite]

TA charts are overrated. And for a beginner, they're more of a distraction than a help.

E.g., "It seems to me volume is by far the most important thing, so I have that brightly displayed."

Traded volume or available volume? I.e., history or orders about to impact the future?

If it's orders, then are they orders with real intent or trader money, or spoofing? If it's traded volume, then it took two to tango—so what do you infer from that? Did you see which side was being favoured? Because the price chart at the time wouldn't necessarily reflect it. Remember iceberging, where the idea is to do large volume without moving the price, and cancellations can move a market too? And then there's orders you see who chased the price and others didn't etc etc

I just mean its not about a charts and a number, the useful information is happening live on the ladder, especially once you start to see the people through the noise. A chart is just a really fuzzy recording of something you missed, probably while you were fiddling with charts.

[ShaunWhite]

A lot of the chart stats are lifted from those used in financials, sports markets are a very different proposition.

And that's where I got bored...and enlisted some backup


Here are a few more differences between financial and sports markets that might fit your perspective:

Fixed Outcome Space: In sports markets, outcomes are binary or finite (win, lose, draw, etc.), whereas financial markets can have an effectively infinite range of potential outcomes over time.

Time-Dependent Expiry: Sports markets have strict, short-lived timeframes tied to events, while financial markets are ongoing and not inherently tied to specific events (except options or futures).

Market Closure: A sports market "ends" definitively when the event concludes, locking in final prices. In financial markets, even when they close daily, they reopen with continuity.

Behavioral Impact: Sports markets are heavily influenced by emotion, perception, and instantaneous events (e.g., a last-minute goal), whereas financial markets tend to react to broader macroeconomic or technical factors.

Volume and Liquidity: Sports markets often have less liquidity and are more prone to sudden, sharp moves compared to financial markets, where liquidity is typically deeper.

Event-Driven Volatility: Sports markets react almost exclusively to specific, predefined events (e.g., a goal, penalty, or race result), while financial markets are influenced by a mix of scheduled (e.g., earnings, reports) and unscheduled (e.g., geopolitical) triggers.

Participant Goals: Many sports market participants are speculating for fun or entertainment, while financial market participants are more likely focused on long-term investment, hedging, or professional trading.

Market Maker Dynamics: Sports markets often have fewer professional market makers, leading to greater inefficiencies and potential for price manipulation.

Information Flow: In sports markets, new information (e.g., injuries, form) can emerge right before or even during the event, whereas in financial markets, critical information dissemination is more regulated.

Would you like to expand on any of these? Or add more specific examples for sports vs. financial market behavior?

[Anbell]

TA charts are overrated. And for a beginner, they're more of a distraction than a help.

E.g., "It seems to me volume is by far the most important thing, so I have that brightly displayed."

Traded volume or available volume? I.e., history or orders about to impact the future?

If it's orders, then are they orders with real intent or trader money, or spoofing? If it's traded volume, then it took two to tango—so what do you infer from that? Did you see which side was being favoured? Because the price chart at the time wouldn't necessarily reflect it. Remember iceberging, where the idea is to do large volume without moving the price, and cancellations can move a market too? And then there's orders you see who chased the price and others didn't etc etc

I just mean its not about a charts and a number, the useful information is happening live on the ladder, especially once you start to see the people through the noise. A chart is just a really fuzzy recording of something you missed, probably while you were fiddling with charts.

concur

[tico]

Hi all
WOM is still a reasonable pointer but in reality the game is almost still impossible to beat . A lot is spoken here about positive (and negative) expectation ,but the reality is the whims of the sports markets no nothing about these various expectations . At best you can lucky for a period of time but with the most careful of get out clauses ,the math and reality of the sports markets will wipe a trader out very quickly . However the traditional lay/back methods are safer ,profoundly more profitable , and one has a great deal of control over the mechanics of betting/laying ,far more than the bot ridden trading markets.
Of course I might be totally wrong
Kinders
Tico

[Kai]

Basic BF charts have always been sufficient for me, think they paint a good enough story

Matchstick charts tho are invaluable for my use case but not really a requirement, most important thing overall is the matched volume column

[Kai]

If I am trading the 10 min to 5 min period, should I have a 5 minute chart, whereas when trading to 2 mins (or beyond) should I move to shorter ranges? Or do most of the proper traders here just have a chart they use for the whole pre off period?

Better to simply ask others what their perfect market looks like, that should tell you so much more

[Euler]

Really you should have a strategy then look to a chart to see if it is support that strategy. Not look at a chart for a strategy as such.

If the price is bombing in then you would look at the chart for a bit of weakness, look at the ladder and then go from there.

If you a looking to catch a bounce then seeing a volume spike on the chart, could be an indicator it's about to reverse.

[ShaunWhite]

Hi all
WOM is still a reasonable pointer but in reality the game is almost still impossible to beat . A lot is spoken here about positive (and negative) expectation ,but the reality is the whims of the sports markets no nothing about these various expectations . At best you can lucky for a period of time but with the most careful of get out clauses ,the math and reality of the sports markets will wipe a trader out very quickly .

EV is simply getting a better price than the likely outcome, whether you consciously think about it or not you can't gain without it. Might be a straight bet final result or ev against a different furture price. Back at 2.2, lay at 2.1 and it's +ev. Prices tend towards accuracy so any price now that's better than any future price and it's +ev.

If it's 'getting lucky' then some have been on a decade long lucky streak. People who get lucky then get wiped out didn't have a strategy in the first place. No strategy that works needs a 'get out clause'. A 'get out' is just another bet, and if that's not well considered too then it makes it worse not better.

WoM is indicative but pretty hard to do much with as it changes every time 20ms.

[tico]

HI
So do you know anybody who has been successfully trading for a decade (I mean the most recent decade since the bookies and bots got involved) . Way back all you had to do was follow the money ,those days have gone
I use a trade if my bets or lay is going against me so it's a useful tool to employ in those circumstances ,but trading only seems to be a hiding to nothing
Kind Regards
Tico

[ShaunWhite]

Really you should have a strategy then look to a chart to see if it is support that strategy. Not look at a chart for a strategy as such.

If the price is bombing in then you would look at the chart for a bit of weakness, look at the ladder and then go from there.

If you a looking to catch a bounce then seeing a volume spike on the chart, could be an indicator it's about to reverse.

All good stuff but he's on the trading 101. As yet there's no 'strategy'. I think you'd agree that for an absolute beginner, understanding the story being told by the ladder is already information overload without bells and whistles to consider.

Tbh as a beginner you could probably spend a week just watching and understanding the price action around evens. Baby steps, kiss, don't run before you can walk, focus on one thing , etc. Forget Bollinger bands, macd, 3 period moving average correlations and needing a desk like Gordon Gecko. It's a 50/50 bet on higher or lower where you'll win or lose 10p to a £1 stake, not managing the national debt.

[Kai]

A 'get out' is just another bet, and if that's not well considered too then it makes it worse not better.

Indeed, one man's exit is another man's entry.

EDIT : Not sure why that sounded sexual, it wasn't meant to

[ShaunWhite]

Indeed, one man's exit is another man's entry.

You're one step away from renaming the spread, the glory hole. The amount on the other side might change your mind about wanting to be taken.

[Blondie]

Thanks for your replies. Just working through them. One quick question...

TA charts are overrated.

What do you mean by "TA"?

[Blondie]

I just mean its not about a charts and a number, the useful information is happening live on the ladder, especially once you start to see the people through the noise. A chart is just a really fuzzy recording of something you missed, probably while you were fiddling with charts.

Excellent stuff thanks. When I said 'volume' I was referring to volume bars on chart. ok it's historic but I am only using it to try to alert me to sudden chunks of big money. Thats why i have it in a bright colour as it seems to me to be more imoportant than past activity on line chart