llama1 wrote:I currently pay the 40% Premium Charge......
My question is:
If I was to teach my son to be a successful trader on Betfair with his OWN Account, would he be INSTANTLY debited a Premium Charge, at a rate of 40%, from Day 1......?
I am assuming the answer is "Yes", seeing that his Account will be linked to mine.
Next Question:
If I was to die, would he still have to pay the Premium Charge......? i.e. Does he have to notify Betfair that I have died?
Follow Up Question:
If, when he has children, he teaches them to be successful on Betfair, will they have to pay the Premium Charge at the 40% rate......?
Which leads me to the "Subject Title"......
Assuming Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden, paid Betfair's Premium Charge and assuming the answers to the previous questions were "YES"......
Surely we should ALL be paying the Premium Charge......?
Account suspended for premium charge avoidance
There was a good post on the Betfair forum about the premium charges and the legal folly that people can be classified as an 'entity' where is the line drawn?: -
A truly diabolical thought has occurred to me.
Suppose a Betfair employee had been monitoring your accounts and decided to copy your winning stratgies by opening dummy accounts x y z so that they could profit as well.
Then later the detection squad in a different Betfair dept notices that accounts x y z are using the same strategy as you.
They then accuse you of premium charge avoidance
Suppose a Betfair employee had been monitoring your accounts and decided to copy your winning stratgies by opening dummy accounts x y z so that they could profit as well.
Then later the detection squad in a different Betfair dept notices that accounts x y z are using the same strategy as you.
They then accuse you of premium charge avoidance
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
As it stands to date, I guess betfair can do whatever they want to do until they are challenged and lose in court I would imagine? It doesnt seem the gambling commisions are really pursuing the.complaint in question if they have not replied to date.
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
I do not know if this will interest you, but some time ago I came across a video where there was a man who was taking a position in advance on a OVER1.5 (???? vs Barcelona) immediately after his bet had been matched, he opened a chat and gave instructions to at least 10 people to bet same as his. Every single one of them was succesfully matched on both sides. Is this according to you not one of those situations where a group of people are linked togheter? If there is one group of people there may be more. Did some of this suspended account people had recieved instructions how to bet throw a conference chat?
I have a friend that got unemployed and got interest in sports betting. After some while he got to know Betfair. He has joined tipping services and tried different things. He has been very active and now he has started trading at Betfair and has also got to know Betangel. He has not yet bought it but is trying it out. He knew that I have been doing trading already many years and of course he wanted to speak with me about it. I had to give him the bad news. We are both living in the same small city (village) and IF he will be successful Betfair will for sure put him together with me and under the 60% punishment. Even worse, Betfair will take from our accounts a random sum of money to punish for premium charge avoidance. Betfair did this already to me once and took a two figure sum (in GBP, maybe not my curr., I'm afraid of Betfair reading this) from me without any explanation how they calculated this punishment and told me that next time they will close my account. Should I wish my friend good luck in his trading career?
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
I posted a while back that I had £3141 taken from my account after a premium charge investigation and my account now in effect belongs to someone else. I got a reply back from the Gambling commissioner in Gibraltar. It is called a 'Proposed Determination'and says that myself and Betfair have until the 29th to submit 'any further representations'. This letter upholds Betfairs case and their right to withold any and all information about the investigation into my account. Just to recap I haven't been able to access any information at all from my own Betfair account and their investigation involving my account. My account was simply used in Betfairs' terms as 'part of a single betting strategy', part of a single entity by the Primary account holder (no explanation of these terms has been provided of course). I don't exist only the 'Primary Account' holder exists. 2-3 weeks ago I sent a recorded delivery letter to Betfair HQ in London. It was a subject access request with a 10 pound postal order enclosed. I hadn't heard a cheap from the gambling commissioner since I entered my complaint last October but had a sixth sense that a Subject Access Request might stir something to life. I will go to court now when and If I can get some information to work with. I think that's the key here. How can I rebut or argue against a judgement held in complete secrecy? I don't know the detail on how my account was linked to the other accounts. I suspect they could link all and any accounts trading in running on the same events using their 'methodolgy' but without information how can I show that. I could waffle on but what's the point? Betfairs secret court, the gambling commissioners secret investigation, the refusal of Betfair to allow me access to my own account information (if you read the Gambling Commissioners letter you will see that he appears to support Betfairs right to secrecy) probably gives me a bit of sympathy with the courts but I need information and data from my own account and i need a bit of info with regard to their linking of my account with others. I am currently putting up a defence based on speculation. Even if I hit on the truth the gambling commissioner does his work in private. Final thing. I will send a letter to the commissioner. I will be asking questions about his complaint procedure and how he went about things.. So if anyone has any points to make then please put them forward.
It's not a huge amount of cash but there is a priciple here. I made a modest profit on Betfair (about £10000 in the year up to the investigation). I actually needed the extra money that I earned there. There's a lot more I suppose I could add (if you want to know any more about the other accounts etc please feel free to post questions). I have uploaded the commissioners letter. I'm not denying people try and avoid paying the charges but I am not one of them I haven't qualified for the premium charge I have a lifetime profit(7-8 years) of under 30g. I was going to wait unil the 29th but the whole thing is a corruption so why not post now?
Anyone know where I can see my attachments that I have uploaded?
It's not a huge amount of cash but there is a priciple here. I made a modest profit on Betfair (about £10000 in the year up to the investigation). I actually needed the extra money that I earned there. There's a lot more I suppose I could add (if you want to know any more about the other accounts etc please feel free to post questions). I have uploaded the commissioners letter. I'm not denying people try and avoid paying the charges but I am not one of them I haven't qualified for the premium charge I have a lifetime profit(7-8 years) of under 30g. I was going to wait unil the 29th but the whole thing is a corruption so why not post now?
Anyone know where I can see my attachments that I have uploaded?
Good luck with it.
If Betfair don't hand over the data, I believe there are further measures you can take, which mean that Betfair will eventually have to hand over the information or end up in a criminal court of law!
I'd post a message on the following forum, as those guys have lots of experience of Subject Access Requests (and are very helpful in my experience): http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/
Jeff
If Betfair don't hand over the data, I believe there are further measures you can take, which mean that Betfair will eventually have to hand over the information or end up in a criminal court of law!
I'd post a message on the following forum, as those guys have lots of experience of Subject Access Requests (and are very helpful in my experience): http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/
Jeff
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
Thanks Jeff,
I have had consumer action groups mentioned to me recently as it occurred to me that my request for info might not go anywhere and meant to look into it.
I'll do that tonight.
I have had consumer action groups mentioned to me recently as it occurred to me that my request for info might not go anywhere and meant to look into it.
I'll do that tonight.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Have you contacted the Daily Telegraph guy who ran various stories on Betfair?
Isn't it the BF AGM soon, he may be keen to hear from you...the press can have a lot of power over a company.
Also what ever happened to the other 2 or 3 people who all popped up at once on this thread?
Isn't it the BF AGM soon, he may be keen to hear from you...the press can have a lot of power over a company.
Also what ever happened to the other 2 or 3 people who all popped up at once on this thread?
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
Hello Andy,
I haven't but It will do no harm now that I have lost with the gambling commissioner. Thanks for the pointer.
I haven't but It will do no harm now that I have lost with the gambling commissioner. Thanks for the pointer.
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
kemabet,
I'd like to give you some advice but I am guessing myself at the moment. I suspect the answer is that Betfair can link any accounts they want. In my case I suspect all they needed was a connection between someone who they suspect of operating a strategy of premium charge avoidance and someone else. In my case I had used a pals computer when I was back in my hometown of Aberfeldy and he used mine when he was in Glasgow at the football or visiting. Once they have the connection they can then build a case between similarities found between the accounts (are they betting on the same sports, same events at same times etc. That's my guess but I'll post more info when/If I get it. I don't know anything about the use of software to place bets and how that would engage with Betfairs Investgators.
I'd like to give you some advice but I am guessing myself at the moment. I suspect the answer is that Betfair can link any accounts they want. In my case I suspect all they needed was a connection between someone who they suspect of operating a strategy of premium charge avoidance and someone else. In my case I had used a pals computer when I was back in my hometown of Aberfeldy and he used mine when he was in Glasgow at the football or visiting. Once they have the connection they can then build a case between similarities found between the accounts (are they betting on the same sports, same events at same times etc. That's my guess but I'll post more info when/If I get it. I don't know anything about the use of software to place bets and how that would engage with Betfairs Investgators.
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
Does anyone know where the uploaded docs go?
In their accounts it showed they had paid a subatantial amount to a company that uses software to digitally fingerprint users.
I have no knowledge of what it does but lets say it included things like api software, connection profiles (how our api software is set up to call the servers is probably unique to a lot of us!!) average stake sizes, average amount held in our accounts, frequency of withdrawals and patterns, time traded before the off, average matched and unmatched bets prices (I bet a lot of us trade in the same range because we know the market operates in a certain way in that range), ip addresses, number of horses traded....percentage of favourites traded, uniqueness of selection (ie do we usually trade one or multiple selections). Couple all that in one fingerprint and I bet we are pretty unique as traders in how we operate.
I have no knowledge of what it does but lets say it included things like api software, connection profiles (how our api software is set up to call the servers is probably unique to a lot of us!!) average stake sizes, average amount held in our accounts, frequency of withdrawals and patterns, time traded before the off, average matched and unmatched bets prices (I bet a lot of us trade in the same range because we know the market operates in a certain way in that range), ip addresses, number of horses traded....percentage of favourites traded, uniqueness of selection (ie do we usually trade one or multiple selections). Couple all that in one fingerprint and I bet we are pretty unique as traders in how we operate.