Overcoming gambling addiction

[SeaHorseRacing]

I know I’m rambling on.

But..

I think the question that needs to be asked is.

Are you choosing to trade/ gamble by desire (before you break your rules) or are you running your bots to fulfill your gambling urge...

Let me explain it another way..

Let’s take an alcoholic for example..

If you were an alcoholic who was abstinent from drinking... decided that your new adventure in life would be to run a pub... this would be a disaster waiting to happen...

However, if you were an alcoholic who had a desire and passion to become a successful barman who was skilled etc.. then your approach could be overturned and I believe you could stay alcohol free.

If you have a desire passion to make money from trading you can over come it..

For some it may seem impossible because there could be hundreds of underlying habits causing it.

I thought I had been a successful bettor for years... from the point of picking a fair amount of winners but when I approached trading I knew my down falls..

Everything trading related will teach you how to approach betting if you don’t have the mindset or the skills required to be successful.

I found trading easier then most but my pitfalls were managing my emotions and my betting balance.. I had poor habits that stemmed from a gambling background... which made my trading life far more difficult than most... whereas some struggle to grasp trading but worked in a finance background.

It’s impossible to compare drinking or drugs to gambling as the source and reasoning for doing it can massively vary...

If you enjoy trading and have a burning desire to be successful at it you need to train your skills...

I was a smoker, drinker & gambler and a lazy bastard before I started trading... although I couldn’t say I had a drink problem... I did like a drink on the weekends..

I haven’t smoked in 3 years... i socialise with smokers and I have 0 urge. I hate smoking!! I hate the smell of it. I rarely drink these days and I work out 5 days a week...

Why is it that smokers can give up smoking and socialise with smokers... gamblers can become successful traders.. (like le tiss)
But alcoholics and drug addicts can relapse just from visiting a pub...

I think the fundamentals lie on the bottom cause.. I think gambling is highly more addictive than anything out there and I think 99% of gamblers could over come there addiction, if they approached it correctly.

If your approach before you gamble implosively is a desire to be successful or to make money than I would work on your problem and keep trying...
If your addiction is stemmed from a psychological issue or inner pain I would seek medical advise and help.

I don’t want to give anyone false hope... but it really can be Achieved.

Another example: when I used to throw my money away it was because I could accept the loss or it was because I was in a bad mood..

Now, if for example you are sat at home and the wife goes on one and throws your dinner over you... as a result you go to the bookies and start gambling... the difference in problems to over come is huge....

To over come my losses... I had to learn to pay all my bills on time, be aware of the moment, understand strike rates, come to terms with the fact I am going to have bad days... I managed this..

However if I had the problem of compulsive gambling... how many issues would I have to deal with? I’d have to deal with the death of my loved one... something which you may never overcome.. or the failures in your life or mistakes...

For the author these are the questions you need to ask and fix... the fact you are running bots before you gamble tells me that you need to work hard on some habbits and expect a good 6 months to fix them.

Anyway enjoy your weekend chaps.

[marketraisen]

Wow. Some good stuff here and food for thought, thank you for that.

Im actually a bit busy just now but will give it a proper read tonight and make some replies.

[SeaHorseRacing]

Quote:
“How do i possibly stop gambling money I’ve won”

I’d encourage you to get intouch, I think I could give you some further advise and I’d like to help you if I can.

You must, I repeat you must rewrite and re wire your brain.
Your brain is wired backwards.. but this isn’t a dig as it isn’t your fault.

[marketraisen]

So a question that keeps coming up is the nature of the addiction and how destructive it is, I would say that compared to my youth its not destructive to the point of ruining my life or the lives of those around me, which I think is important given some of the examples of this listed.

Besides a few mad spells in my early 20s that is, as a grown up I pay for a house, half of a car and have some long term investments I would never dream of touching to gamble with. I dont have any debts, I earn alright money for now (contract work, industrial heating, almost 50k this year with 3 months off) and never go out of my way to find more work for gambling money.

However I am a gambling addict, between 2015-2016 I learned how to win and was banned from every betting firm on the internet besides a few jokers (like 32red, betbright) who have never been best price on any market ever, which pushed me onto the exchange, where I did my bollocks overstaking.

Today was a perfect example of the behaviour I want to stop actually and as my mind was writing this post before my fingers tapped the buttons, it may have just stumbled into one of the issues.

I was about to say "today, my automated trading started digging a hole, with a good few bets in a row being stopped out for loses but I rallied in the end to make a tiny profit, which I was delighted with given what happened in the early afternoon. Sitting down to go over everything this evening I decided I might aswell chuck it on some US racing nag to see if I could turn the £28 into something worthwhile".

The important words there are "tiny" profit, something "worthwhile", I'm not viewing hard earned small sums of money as being important, as in the grander scheme of things I probably could spunk £28 away over and over without it hurting my real life (for a short while). We all know that these small amounts very quickly add up to large amounts and who knows, maybe tomorrow I'll lose £200 and the little extra today couldve softened the blow.

Raising the stakes across the board is no cure for now of course, not only are some opening positions being fully matched on the bleeding edge of markets but especially with fully automated trading I wouldnt feel confident enough to risk it, though I could expand one day and really should be taking what little I can get towards that end. My real betting bank I'd be willing to play through is probably closer to 5-6k than 1k but theres zero chance I'd ever leave that in the hands of a spreadsheet or api that can freak out with a mistake.

Maybe a change of terminology is needed on my end, retraining my brain as some have said, even something as simple as viewing results in terms of points rather than pounds? The gambling addiction side of it is muddy as the terminology covers such a massive range of behaviours from fully degenerate roulette/scratch card beggers to people being 'addicted' to playing bingo a couple of times a year on holiday and even with money to hand I'm not even remotely tempted to bet again now I've lost that £28.

Even with a full days sport on I didnt bet at all until I got home at night and relaxed, I was busy all day but could still have done some phone betting if I felt the urge, I didnt. Its days where I find myself sitting about the house is where the damage is done.

Somebody earlier said to have a separate trading and betting balance on another site, that actually does appeal to me. The danger of course is what happens when I inevitably bust the betting balance out every week, do I keep trying or not? Eventually I'd have to deposit again.

Maybe I just need new hobbies when I'm at home. It would need to be pretty huge given what a significant part of my life gambling has been over the past 15 years.

[wearthefoxhat]

I could be wrong...reading between the lines, despite the 15 years of losses, there seems to be a burning desire to gain a 2nd income through semi/full automation, or maybe in time eventually, replace the £50k+ (p.a.y.e) a year through trading or some form of automation. Peter Webb did a similar thing and the rest is history, so it can be done...however....

It's about real choices and commitment to the cause. If I was in your position, I would focus on work, run the automation in simulation mode and analyse the profitable/loss areas of the automation. (Sim mode is only a guide though). The analysis/R&D will soak up time and emotional energy without the need to chuck any money at any other sport without good reasoning. You say the dangerous times are when you're sitting about the house, so analysing/researching would be ideal.

If the semi/full automation holds up well, and you have the evidence in front of you, (eg: after a 3 month period), you would of accrued some new disposable income for the cause.

Next step, would be good money management. risk-reward ratio and compounding.....etc...

Ultimately, if you continue to hurt yourself with sporadic gambling, the other advice on the forum would be worth heeding.

[Trader Pat]

Gambling with money made trading, tell me how to stop this please, I need help!

For me this post reveals a massive flaw in trading forums / communities. Marketraisen seems to know he has a gambling addiction all you need to do is look at the first line from his post but still he gets the 'hang in there' advice. Marketraisen you need to withdraw any money you have in any exchange / bookmaker account, exclude yourself and close your accounts. The combination of losing money, not knowing how to stop and knowing you need help is about as big a red flag as you can get.

I've had the usual problems that most have of blowing banks, going in play and generally making stupid trading / gambling decisions but not once during that period did I ever feel in the state of despair that the poster seems to be in. When somebody is so clearly in this much pain they shouldn't be given advice on trading strategies or be told to stick with it. Like a couple of other posters have said you cant manage a gambling addiction.

Trading is technically pretty simple, but its the mental demons of each individual that can make it impossible for some people. For me the process is straightforward.. most of us start out, lose money and learn from the mistakes and cut them out. Some of us (like me) take longer to cut them out than others but for somebody with a gambling addiction / problem they're not capable of doing this, they just get caught in the never ending circle of addiction until they find the strength to walk away from it completely.

I wish you luck Marketraisen, you need to cut your losses and walk away completely before it starts affecting your personal relationships.

[ruthlessimon]

For me this post reveals a massive flaw in trading forums / communities.

We're totally biased yes. It's very easy to take the moral high ground - yet I'm pretty sure all of us agree that the best markets, are the ones with most gambling money. Yet on these days we won't contemplate just how many gamblers are in marketraisen's exact position.

Peter did put it nicely in the "Worst footy trade" video: "How cute! you've got an extreme liability for your stupidity, but I tell ya what, let me give you back your money.. Aint gonna happen!!" He's as ruthless as me

In fact, scientists are in an awful position. If a cheese company funds research - & you find cheese is a huge factor leading to heart disease - you've gotta weigh up "do I publish the truth & never get another grant", or "fuck the wider population's health, I need to feed my family"

[SeaHorseRacing]

Trading is not easy... people seem to think some lucky folkes have the skills to do it and make money quickly..

Absolute rubbish..

No matter your background it’s very difficult but some are more fortunate for sure..

You have to overcome life long habbits whether they are good or poor..

If your an impatient person you will struggle with trading but you can overcome it.
Anything can be overcome just some may have a significant hill to climb...

If you want it enough you can make it work...

Most people give up... I can’t do it... I’m a gambling addict... learning more about the markets and systems to get rich quick won’t resolve.

You have to be self critical and work on things you may not even know you have...

If your the sort of person who cannot wait to even buy a new sofa or mobile phone when you know you shouldn’t by it... your already at odds..

For me... as spoken in previous threads.. I was a very impatient person... i couldn’t wait for things... i couldn’t just sit down and eat my own dinner without waddling it down.. you have to change your life to make your trading. Work...

Trying to stop yourself from placing impulsive trades won’t happen if your still acting impulsive areas in your life that has nothing to do with trading.

If you can’t walk how do you expect to run.. running is going to be so difficult.. but if your learn to walk you could learn to run...

If you can’t manage your finances, pay your bills... how do you expect to manage a trading or gambling account...
Learn to manage your money first.

If you cant resist the urge to gamble impulsively when losing... what other areas in your life is causing that?
These are the questions you need to ask..

When I struggled with my trading I had to make small changes first before I even worked on improving my trading...

For example... you buy something in a shop... it’s faulty doesn’t work.. oh fuck it.. it was only £25. No refund just throw it away. Like it means nothing.
If you behave like that in life how do you expect to manage a £2 loss trading?

I can’t say from experience but I do know. If you want to be a lawyer it’s highly unlikely you will get a job if you have a criminal record.

If you apply for a job in a bank, they won’t take you on if you fail the credit check.. there are other reasons but it is not rocket science to work out why.

I wish I knew this years ago but I learned the hard way and so many never even relise it.

I’m not suggesting you have to become something your not but you have to work on certain aspects in your life before you even consider clicking your mouse.

[Trader Pat]

For me this post reveals a massive flaw in trading forums / communities.

We're totally biased yes. It's very easy to take the moral high ground - yet I'm pretty sure all of us agree that the best markets, are the ones with most gambling money. Yet on these days we won't contemplate just how many gamblers are in marketraisen's exact position.

Think you're missing the point here and I'm not taking the moral high ground but if any one of us get to the point where we go into a public arena like this forum and feel the need to ask for help then its an addiction and the only remedy is to cut your losses and quit not advice on what strategies to employ. Like I said earlier I've blown plenty of banks and made stupid trading decisions but I never found myself needing to ask for help on how to stop. If I would have ever reached that point I would hope somebody would tell me I have a gambling problem and need to stop rather than reduce your stakes and watch more videos.

I think theres also confusion as to what exactly constitutes a gambling problem. Losing money and going in play and not knowing what strategies to employ doesnt constitute a gambling problem, but not being able to stop and asking for help does.

[CallumPerry]

Besides a few mad spells in my early 20s that is, as a grown up I pay for a house, half of a car and have some long term investments I would never dream of touching to gamble with.

...


The important words there are "tiny" profit, something "worthwhile", I'm not viewing hard earned small sums of money as being important, as in the grander scheme of things I probably could spunk £28 away over and over without it hurting my real life (for a short while).

...

Maybe a change of terminology is needed on my end, retraining my brain as some have said, even something as simple as viewing results in terms of points rather than pounds?

...

Somebody earlier said to have a separate trading and betting balance on another site, that actually does appeal to me. The danger of course is what happens when I inevitably bust the betting balance out every week, do I keep trying or not? Eventually I'd have to deposit again.

Maybe I just need new hobbies when I'm at home. It would need to be pretty huge given what a significant part of my life gambling has been over the past 15 years.

What good is half a car? Will come to the rest later in the message...

Firstly, you seem very sensible. It's good you are man enough to ask for help. Yes users on this forum (myself included) are biased. We are all striving for the same thing. A lot want to help others on their paths too but ultimately you need to make the right decision as it is your life. Very good advice has been shared so far and I think everyone's comments fall in one of two areas.

1) Some think you should step completely away (for a short time or forever) for your own safety.
2) Some think you can alter your psychology to avoid such detrimental behaviour.

Only you know which advice resonates the most with you and which will benefit you mentally and financially. Like everyone else, I can only assume how bad this is and recommend: limits, bans, passing on your automation etc and calling it a day or offer some advice to help you if you do wish to carry on.

I think you should treat this as a game. Like you said, think of it as "It is about getting points not pounds". If you enjoy making bots, looking through spreadsheets and being sad geeks like the rest of us then there is no chance you can harm yourself. Detach that 'this is money' aspect from it and play with imaginary numbers. To win the game you need good rules, money management etc

If you treat this as an afterwork game and you enjoy it you won't do anything stupid. When you start to get bored of 'the game' go and do something else. Reward yourself for stepping away, start up some new activities (I've started to give myself a fitness challenge every 6 months which requires regular training, 1 mile swim a few weeks ago, half a marathon end of march next year).

I genuinely really hope you find a way to enjoy trading as a bot making game or are aware enough of the problem enough, and have heeded the advice, to say "yep, that's me done". The decision is up to you.

One final tip if you do stay: document good days and bad publicly on here often? Speaking/typing publicly is good. In a male-heavy forum we should be praising discussion about mental health. I believe we have done so far. This feels like a safe place.

[ruthlessimon]

Think you're missing the point here and I'm not taking the moral high ground

I know you weren't. My post wasn't aimed at you Pat; I was agreein' with ya

The reason I replied, was cos I also thought - a guy coming to a trader forum, where pretty much all of us, require people to bet "inefficiently" to keep our edges stable; immediately causes a slight conflict of interest.

[Trader Pat]

I know you weren't. My post wasn't aimed at you Pat; I was agreein' with ya

Ok sorry mate, not used to people agreeing with me!

[SeaHorseRacing]

Think you're missing the point here and I'm not taking the moral high ground

I know you weren't. My post wasn't aimed at you Pat; I was agreein' with ya

The reason I replied, was cos I also thought - a guy coming to a trader forum, where pretty much all of us, require people to bet "inefficiently" to keep our edges stable; immediately causes a slight conflict of interest.

But that’s exactly my point... The majority on Betfair alone lose money and the majority are not gambling addicts. How do so many lose with such a small house edge?

If punters had the edge of the book and the overround was 90%. Everybody will still lose probably lose.

After reading the authors post I can’t say he has a gambling addiction but rather a poor mindset.
Only he will truly know that answer...

Laziness is a huge contributor for traders and gamblers... you get out what you put in..
Why people think they can just create a profitable bot and be profitable is pointless... regardless if your gambling it... if you had a sex addiction and you were spending all your winnings on that you still have a similar problem...

The fact your earning 50k a year and playing for peanuts already answers a lot of your questions.
Why do you want out of it? If you want success you have to train yourself for it.

Topics like this annoy me because people can not grasp there own reasonings.
Anything is possible, it takes a lot of guts to come out and man up about this topic and I think it’s couragious.

He wants help and clearly wants this to work.

He is wants to change... he has a profitable bot... imagine what you could be with discipline and mindset?
Most people can’t even create a profitable bot. Your half way there...

I suspect your not managing your own life at all. Paying bills to late.. poor credit. Disrespecting your own assets...this is your core problem that you have to deal with.. but only you will know the underlying problem.

I’m sorry but I cannot agree that your situation is compulsive gambling.

Bookies are open because people lose money... not every gambler is a compulsive gambler...
Compulsive gamblers need medical help... most losers need training.

If you gamble because you need a fix to escape the life you hate. Or hate looking in the mirror or who you are...
Walk away.

[Trader Pat]

After reading the authors post I can’t say he has a gambling addiction but rather a poor mindset.
Only he will truly know that answer...

I disagree. If he has taken the step of asking for help to stop then I think he has a problem.

[SeaHorseRacing]

After reading the authors post I can’t say he has a gambling addiction but rather a poor mindset.
Only he will truly know that answer...

I disagree. If he has taken the step of asking for help to stop then I think he has a problem.

If you contact gamcare or whatever the organisations are called.. what happens.

You have to live your life away from everything.

How can you possibly escape everything? Bookies on every high street, tv adverts???

How do you know you have issues you can’t control if you haven’t made a logical attempt to fix it..

How can anyone manage a trading balance if they can’t pay there rent?? Not suggesting this is the case but you understand what I’m saying.

It takes an incredible amount of will power for addicts to give up... but that doesn’t mean that will power couldn’t be channeled to solve the underlying problem...

What do you want to do? Quit walk away and make sure you never bet in your life ever again??
Or tacking your mindset and sort yourself out?