Students

[Iron]

Hi CaerMyrddin

What annoys me is the sense of entitlement. They seem to think that the world owes them something. To paraphrase JFK, they are demanding things of their country, rather than asking what they can do for it...

I think people have to accept that the unaffordable credit-fueled gravy train in the West is grinding to a halt. In future, if young people want something, they'll probably have to do what their grandparents did: work hard and save up. To quote George Bernard Shaw (I think, and the quote probably isn't 100% accurate): 'Do you think the fact that you were born an Englishman means that the laws of nature are distended in your favour?' Apparently many students do...

Jeff

The facebook generation kids worried with their retirement? No way!

Basically they are very upset because they get crappy wages and no social benefits. The same is happening in Spain and Portugal, so I think things won't be very different in the UK?

Many of them can't formalize it properly so basically they protest.

[CaerMyrddin]

I absolutely agree with your line of thought, but I have to add that the previous generation gave theirselves way too many perks, many more than those that the system could afford. They added them up while they were active but never thought about who would pay the bill and it's unfair that the new generation has to pay it.

It can talk on both mine and my coleagues behalf. From those with who I keep in touch only one as signed a contract. All the others stay half a year in this company, one year at best on another and that's it. Many of us don't even have social security. And we took civil engineering, it's not like having a degree in cinema. (with all the credit due to those who took it)

About the credit, I don't have a single credit btw. I was raised in an anti-credit family lol.

It only makes sense to buy a credit if you want to buy a house or start a bussiness. My housekeeper bought herself a new steam iron on credit.

Can't understand how people don't understand the bill will come, sooner or later, but it will come!

Btw, IMHO, Merkel is right. If a creditor can't assess correctly the default risk, it has to pay the price for it. If it wasn't like that, why on earth would there be different interest rates to different countries?

[andyfuller]

Hopefully, though, it will put off people who are at uni just because it's a better option than flipping burgers at McDonalds

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11810930

[hgodden]

IMO they need to be looking to cut the number of places by cutting the number of so called 'softer' degrees for subjects that aren't useful to employers, as well as dealing with the issue of the number of people that start courses and drop out which costs an enormous amount of money - when I went a few years ago the drop out rate was something like 30%. Perhaps by limiting access for under 20 year olds (a large proportion of which drop out or change course) and with much better careers advice at schools and colleges (i.e. making sure that they genuinely know what path they're on and that the degree they have chosen will match the job they want etc.) Also I think the standards of entry should be higher, students get into some universities with 2 or 3 Es at A Level. Right now unis are producing too many graduates for not enough jobs.

Having said all that, I think that people are perfectly entitled in this day and age to expect the opportunity to better their lives without being plunged into debt until they're sixty. The only group of people that will really benefit from this new arrangement will be whoever is purchasing the Student Loan book - with higher rates of interest and (from what I've read) no option of repaying the debt of early once it has been taken out (how on earth can the government justify that?) whichever company or bank is in charge of these 'mortgages on careers' then I'd like some shares!

[Iron]

IMO they need to be looking to cut the number of places by cutting the number of so called 'softer' degrees for subjects that aren't useful to employers

I agree.

I know some people would say that subjects like philosophy, sociology, etc broaden one's intellectual skills. But I would argue that so do vocational subjects like computing and engineering.

I would also argue that there's such a thing as having too many thinkers! Whilst there's always a need in industry for ideas people, there's also a lot to be said for people who don't try and reinvent the wheel, but just follow instructions! As someone who's annoyed many colleagues and bosses due to falling into the former camp, I know whereof I speak!

Also I think the standards of entry should be higher, students get into some universities with 2 or 3 Es at A Level.

I agree.

And due to pass rate inflation, it must be hard for the top universities to identify the top students.

Having said all that, I think that people are perfectly entitled in this day and age to expect the opportunity to better their lives without being plunged into debt until they're sixty.

The problem is that there's no such thing as a free lunch - someone has to foot the bill. If we were to provide free education to 50% of today's 18-21s, clearly something would have to give somewhere else.

Jeff

[Dobbin]

Hi Folks

I would have thought that the "Students" or wanna be students were Educated enough to have noticed that the Lib Dems did not get Elected by a clear majority so are not in a position to implement a Manifesto Pledge.

I am sure, however I did not go to university, that you cannot put all of your policies into effect if you are the Minority partner in a coalition Govt.

I am happy to be corrected on that.

cheers

Dobbin

[hgodden]

Since when is going to university wanting to work for a better life for yourself a free lunch?! Students work hard for their degrees and will pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes, parents have paid taxes and they will do jobs that will benefit the country and keep it competitive. It's not like they're sat on the dole or selling drugs here!

A large amount of what they will pay back will not go to fund higher education anyway, it will go to private companies or banks (whoever buys the student loan book.)

I find it funny the way the media are reporting the whole thing, as if it's all a display of anger directed at nick glegg and the lib dems. It's the tories who want the rise in fees, its anti tory graffiti you see everywhere and when they actually stop and talk to the protestors they aren't talking about the lib dems at all

[Iron]

Even if we assume all students are motivated by such noble aspirations, the fact remains that lecturers don't teach for free, so someone will have to stump up the cost of tuition fees. Therefore, it's a lunch that someone will have to pay for!

If the economy were booming, then paying the tuition fees of half of the country's 18-21 year olds, regardless of might be affordable. But in the current financial situation, it's not...

Jeff

Since when is going to university wanting to work for a better life for yourself a free lunch?!

[Iron]

Hi Dobbin

I think the argument is that:

A. The Lib Dems promised clearly to vote against a measure that they are now voting for. IMHO, if an MP wants to break a key election promise, they should first have a bi-election in their constituency. But let's face it, that ain't gonna happen...

B. If the Lib Dems and all the opposition MPs voted against the measure, it would fail to pass.

Jeff

Hi Folks

I would have thought that the "Students" or wanna be students were Educated enough to have noticed that the Lib Dems did not get Elected by a clear majority so are not in a position to implement a Manifesto Pledge.

I am sure, however I did not go to university, that you cannot put all of your policies into effect if you are the Minority partner in a coalition Govt.

I am happy to be corrected on that.

cheers

Dobbin

[andyfuller]

the fact remains that lecturers don't teach for free, so someone will have to stump up the cost of tuition fees. Therefore, it's a lunch that someone will have to pay for!

If the economy were booming, then paying the tuition fees of half of the country's 18-21 year olds, regardless of might be affordable. But in the current financial situation, it's not..

The reason the country is in debt is because of the generations of those that got their uni paid for like yourself, I am not saying your specific actions caused the debt just to be clear.

The free uni generation will long be retired and dead before the debt they have created has been paid for and who is going to end up paying it - the future generations to come many of whom are yet to be born.

Jeff it seems you say that you can't have your cake and eat it - so why not impose a tax on those that have had the free uni and the benefits from that. You seem very much against those that got it for free and who have left the country in a mess having to make a contribution but all to happy for those that haven't caused the mess to have to pay due to previous generations errors.

How about we slash the pensions of the public sector workers who are on these final salary pensions for example, then they would be contributing also now the piggy bank is empty but they expect the future generations to pay for these peoples final salary pensions.

[freddy]

What great deal the students have even with the increase, they don't know there born .

I would love to take out a business loan and only pay it back if it made me 15k or more.

[Iron]

The reason the country is in debt is because of the generations of those that got their uni paid for like yourself.

The free uni generation will long be retired and dead before the debt they have created has been paid for and who is going to end up paying it - the future generations to come many of whom are yet to be born.

You can't lay the blame for the current economic mess at the door of people over the age of about 30!

It goes a lot deeper than that!

And whilst the generations you refer to have taken a lot from the state, let's not forget that they've also contributed to sustained real-term economic growth over many years...

You seem very much against those that got it for free and who have left the country in a mess having to make a contribution.

Quite. If you had an operation on the NHS, and years later someone asked you to pay for it, I think you'd be a bit miffed..

but all to happy for those that haven't caused the mess to have to pay due to previous generations errors.

I just think that there are better uses of taxpayers' money.

The choice between more nurses or more media studies graduates is a no-brainer IMHO...

How about we slash the pensions of the public sector workers who are on these final salary pensions for example

I'm not sure stealing from OAPs is the best way forward...

Jeff

[hgodden]

IMO half of 18-21 year olds shouldn't be going to university, that's clear from what I said above. However tuition fees for those that do go, as part of the 'free' education system, were free for many many years regardless of the ups and downs of the economy at the time. In a few years the country will be 'booming' again and young people will still be saddled with debts (significantly larger than the contribution they'll make to their course due to the interest over such long period of time) until they're in their 60s. The current system is tough enough, a friend of mine recently qualified as a criminal solicitor with £60,000 of debts. Living in London he has no chance of getting a mortgage (criminal solicitors have surprisingly poor salaries,) he worked out the other day that he wont be debt free until he's 50 and would have been better off in the long run staying in his home town and working as a postman!

Under the kind of thinking that says 'someone has to fit the bill, why should it be me when I'm not a student?' then you could get rid of allsorts. Maybe kids should pay for their education from day one , is it really fair on childless couples that part of their tax goes to fund the education system for other peoples children? What about the NHS? If someone else needs a life saving operation and you don't, why should you help fit the bill? My point is that these things is what society is supposed to do, to help each other and work together for the common good Otherwise you just get devisiveness and even greater inequality.

Andy, the reason the country got into so much debt was mainly because of under-regulation of what the banks were doing. Although we'd spent probably a bit too much that wasn't what dragged us into trouble it was needing to bail out the banks - Ireland actually had a debt surplus before the banking crisis and they're in far greater trouble than us.

Anyway as unfortunately I have absolutely no power and debating politics can only waste time that we could be making money that's my last word on the subject In today's every man for himself pay-as-you-go world we're gonna need every penny

[Iron]

Absolutely!

If the investment doesn't pay off, you just put it down to experience, without having to worry about the small matter of loan repayments!

Sign me up!

Jeff

I would love to take out a business loan and only pay it back if it made me 15k or more.

[Iron]

In a few years the country will be 'booming' again

I hope you're right, but I doubt it.

Even if we manage to get through the next few years without another major economic crisis, I think that the balance of world economic power will soon shift from West to East. How can we compete with the likes of China and India, which have increasingly educated workforces that are willing to work at a tenth of our wages?

You might be interested in this link about what might be to come: http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/201 ... -collapse/

The current system is tough enough, a friend of mine recently qualified as a criminal solicitor with £60,000 of debts. Living in London he has no chance of getting a mortgage.

Once the housing bubble has burst, things might look up for him (although perhaps not for the wider economy!).

Under the kind of thinking that says 'someone has to fit the bill, why should it be me when I'm not a student?' then you could get rid of allsorts.

True, but cuts do need to be made. If we lived in an age of great prosperity, my view on this matter might well be different.

Jeff