gr8 thread, in my own trading it is 2 steps forward and 1.99 steps back, by I am making progress and know a hell of a lot more about the mental proccess going on in my head now... But I am still not sure what sort of a trader I am.. so starting this week its back to basics and more serious analysis of results to find what currently works best... a mistake I have made is to try and be good in all situations, I think this is possible but only with an awfull lot of experience.
Another point of reference I am using is to look back on past learning curves in say sport for example and using that experience to help find a direction.. e.g. I learnt to ski in my early thirties and fell head over heels in love with the mountains, i thought about skiing 50 weeks of the year and skiied for two.. it drove me crackers, i wanted to make every turn perfect and ski with the panache of "jean claude le hotshot", eventually I became so frustrated and down after attempting to become a basic level instructer at the local ski slope. that I stopped, hung up the boots and never touched them for nearly a year, one autumn I saw a course being run and thought maybe I'll try this skiing lark again, Inspired and rejuvenated the mountains beckened, I forgot all about the perfect turns, took a few lessons and took a little here a little there untill it all started to click... and the freedom came, that wild childlike freedom away from the crowds just you a small group, a mountain guide and mother earth's best snow to play in...words can never do justice to those surroundings and sheer beauty all around you...
I hope that maybe approaching trading in that mindsett may help.. but I know it is a long road to that seemingly effortless proccess.. But I do have a trip in january to look forward too..
happy trading groovy
Attitude
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
Very interesting thread 
Personally, I can't really tell if stress or calm are better. Sometimes some pressure and having goals can do the trick to keep me forward, sometimes it has the opposite effect. If I calm sometimes I can concentrate better on finding opportunities, but others I think it gets me somewhat lazy and risk adverse. To be honest, a mixture of both may be better, as it will push you forward whyle keeping your nerve, will that be being in the zone?
@Jeff, last month I started learning meditation, as my wife wanted to and I knew some guys were doing it. When I read about some of the cientifically proven effects I decided to give it a go. Are you into it too?
Personally, I can't really tell if stress or calm are better. Sometimes some pressure and having goals can do the trick to keep me forward, sometimes it has the opposite effect. If I calm sometimes I can concentrate better on finding opportunities, but others I think it gets me somewhat lazy and risk adverse. To be honest, a mixture of both may be better, as it will push you forward whyle keeping your nerve, will that be being in the zone?
@Jeff, last month I started learning meditation, as my wife wanted to and I knew some guys were doing it. When I read about some of the cientifically proven effects I decided to give it a go. Are you into it too?
Hi Antonio
The short answer is 'Not nearly as much as I should be', although I plan to change that!
The challenge with meditation is that it's easy to procrastinate doing it! Meditation involves stilling the mind, and the mind doesn't want to be stilled - it wants to fly about all over the place! Meditators often compare the mind to a drunken monkey! So it's important to find time to force yourself to meditate, and ignore your mind when it tells you about other things you need to be doing, or tries to get you to think about the past or the future!
You might also find this thread interesting: http://betangel.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... definitely
If you're interested in reading about meditation, I'd recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0918 ... W46TCZPVN2
Jeff
The short answer is 'Not nearly as much as I should be', although I plan to change that!
The challenge with meditation is that it's easy to procrastinate doing it! Meditation involves stilling the mind, and the mind doesn't want to be stilled - it wants to fly about all over the place! Meditators often compare the mind to a drunken monkey! So it's important to find time to force yourself to meditate, and ignore your mind when it tells you about other things you need to be doing, or tries to get you to think about the past or the future!
You might also find this thread interesting: http://betangel.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... definitely
If you're interested in reading about meditation, I'd recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0918 ... W46TCZPVN2
Jeff
CaerMyrddin wrote: @Jeff, last month I started learning meditation, as my wife wanted to and I knew some guys were doing it. When I read about some of the cientifically proven effects I decided to give it a go. Are you into it too?
The problem I have sometimes is boredom
I don't really trade horses, so I'm not pushing trades through with just 5-10 mins before the off. I'm invariably trading markets hours before they start, and this can lead to boredom. Boredom can be a destructive state of mind in trading because it makes oneself momentarily reckless, or you tend to lose concentration. Also, you can become a bit idle & start procrastinating. It probably explains why my post count is so high, I'm often just filling in time whilst I wait for my trade to get taken.
I don't really trade horses, so I'm not pushing trades through with just 5-10 mins before the off. I'm invariably trading markets hours before they start, and this can lead to boredom. Boredom can be a destructive state of mind in trading because it makes oneself momentarily reckless, or you tend to lose concentration. Also, you can become a bit idle & start procrastinating. It probably explains why my post count is so high, I'm often just filling in time whilst I wait for my trade to get taken.
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
I understand you Darren. I'll post more often when just trading football preoff!
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rubysglory
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:02 am
Good thread Euler and some interesting points. IMO I think fear of failure,touched on by Consty1, is a major cause of why unsuccessful Traders struggle. This fear, perhaps the defensive mode posed by JG, in turn creates a mental situation where the Trader is unable to both mentally and financially handle a loss. Any loss, no matter how small, invariably wipes out the Trader's bank and the fear of loss that is triggered is overwhelming - often resulting in a chase your money Martingale mentality. As someone from a horse racing Handicapping background, I feel that one of the biggest hurdles to mentally overcome with Trading is money management. When Handicapping, the money management aspect is relatively static, based on a bet to prices logic. Simplistically, if I rate a horse at 2.00 and the market is quoting 4.00, I bet 50 units. If I rate a horse at 4.00 and the market is 2.00, I either don't bet or perhaps look for a lay opportunity. With Trading, for some the 'knowing how much to open your bets with' is not quite so simple. Do I trade the same bank across a 4.50 - 5.00 range and I would a 2.00 - 2.50 range, do I trade as a percentage of bank, do I trade a price swing percentage as against a tick movement ? These are some of the questions that I feel make Trading quite daunting.
rg
rg
I once read a book on trading which highly recommended this exercise to get you in the right frame of mind for trading:
http://www.highlysensitivesouls.com/art ... gpages.htm
The authors went as far as to say that, if you can't spare the time to do this exercise, you should really consider whether trading is right for you at this time!
The idea is that it's a form of meditation - it helps to clear out all the worries from your mind, and frees you to focus on the task at hand without anxiety.
If you don't control your thoughts and emotions, they will control you...
Jeff
http://www.highlysensitivesouls.com/art ... gpages.htm
The authors went as far as to say that, if you can't spare the time to do this exercise, you should really consider whether trading is right for you at this time!
The idea is that it's a form of meditation - it helps to clear out all the worries from your mind, and frees you to focus on the task at hand without anxiety.
If you don't control your thoughts and emotions, they will control you...
Jeff
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Groovyelms
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 am
thanks for those sugestions, I am drawn to the idea of meditation and it will be fun doing some research...Ferru123 wrote:Groovy - Try meditation or hypnosis!
They are great for getting you in a relaxed, focused state, where you have a clear mind and don't get anxious every time the market moves against you.
Jeff
groovy
Yes, good points. Really, if you're not confident in your bets, you shouldn't place them. If you are confident, you really need to let the trades go to completion. Make your bed and lay in it. Agree.
A shame I haven't been able to do that. It's amazing that it's nearly always my initial instincts are shown to be the correct ones, and then I keep changing things and doing retarded things... and blowing my chances all the time...I need to tie my hands to stop them creeping to the keyboard, or set it and forget it on the spreadsheet and resist the endless temptation to look at it and jump in doing something retarded again.
I'm sure all gamblers would agree that it was when they didn't stick their initial betting plans that disaster always struck, and they rued the times they deviated from their initial bets.
I think people can get into a state of 'learned helplessness' after losing all the time, they just start expecting to lose, and the fear becomes self-defeating.
Also, when you only have a small bank and don't have the money to play around with, I think things are much tougher. Of course, when you are most desperate not to lose, is the very time you are most likely to do so. The people losing are the ones that can least afford it.
A shame I haven't been able to do that. It's amazing that it's nearly always my initial instincts are shown to be the correct ones, and then I keep changing things and doing retarded things... and blowing my chances all the time...I need to tie my hands to stop them creeping to the keyboard, or set it and forget it on the spreadsheet and resist the endless temptation to look at it and jump in doing something retarded again.
I'm sure all gamblers would agree that it was when they didn't stick their initial betting plans that disaster always struck, and they rued the times they deviated from their initial bets.
I think people can get into a state of 'learned helplessness' after losing all the time, they just start expecting to lose, and the fear becomes self-defeating.
Also, when you only have a small bank and don't have the money to play around with, I think things are much tougher. Of course, when you are most desperate not to lose, is the very time you are most likely to do so. The people losing are the ones that can least afford it.
Zenyatta -
That's why I obsess about whether particular techniques have a long-term edge, and try things out in practice mode!
I've lost enough money from gambling (in the sense of betting without an edge) to know it's a losing proposition...
Jeff
That's why I obsess about whether particular techniques have a long-term edge, and try things out in practice mode!
I've lost enough money from gambling (in the sense of betting without an edge) to know it's a losing proposition...
Jeff
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
what a depressing thread !!!
tales of woe, why do we do it...
whilst i agree that controlling oneself is key, and meditation might help that initially,i really dont see anyone, reacting to a trade gone very wrong, by chanting hari krishna, lighting a joss stick, and gazing outside attempting to be in sync with the oneness of the universe by swaying in time with the bending of the trees branches in the wind.
Good luck with it though..
tales of woe, why do we do it...
whilst i agree that controlling oneself is key, and meditation might help that initially,i really dont see anyone, reacting to a trade gone very wrong, by chanting hari krishna, lighting a joss stick, and gazing outside attempting to be in sync with the oneness of the universe by swaying in time with the bending of the trees branches in the wind.
Good luck with it though..
The idea is that you do those things before you trade!
Try it! You might find yourself shrugging your shoulders in a situation where you'd normally get angry!
Jeff
Try it! You might find yourself shrugging your shoulders in a situation where you'd normally get angry!
Jeff
mister man wrote: whilst i agree that controlling oneself is key, and meditation might help that initially,i really dont see anyone, reacting to a trade gone very wrong, by chanting hari krishna, lighting a joss stick, and gazing outside attempting to be in sync with the oneness of the universe by swaying in time with the bending of the trees branches in the wind.
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MarketTrader
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 pm
- Location: UK
From reading your various posts mister man, I would say you are a 'the world is against me' type of person.
You'll never be happy and those around you or that have any contact with you will be happy either whilst they have to listen to your negative rants. I don't know what terrible thing has affected you to be like you are but have you considered getting help?
I would go away and have a long think about how you approach life and others. I'm sure with a bit of effort you could turn things around for you.
And once you have solved whatever it is that is troubling you it is likely your trading will improve no-end.
Good luck.
You'll never be happy and those around you or that have any contact with you will be happy either whilst they have to listen to your negative rants. I don't know what terrible thing has affected you to be like you are but have you considered getting help?
I would go away and have a long think about how you approach life and others. I'm sure with a bit of effort you could turn things around for you.
And once you have solved whatever it is that is troubling you it is likely your trading will improve no-end.
Good luck.
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
Interesting reply Markey Trader.
not so subtlely berating a person for alledgedly being negative, whilst pretending to want to help, whilst all the while of course in reality attempting to belittle and put them down.
I wont be following your lead by espousing an ameteur critique of yourself here.
But i think this might be of interest....
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 314AAKLCQN
Good luck to you too
not so subtlely berating a person for alledgedly being negative, whilst pretending to want to help, whilst all the while of course in reality attempting to belittle and put them down.
I wont be following your lead by espousing an ameteur critique of yourself here.
But i think this might be of interest....
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 314AAKLCQN
Good luck to you too