Ten Pound Trader..

[LeTiss]

ba1000,

I think you need to explain that a little more. How can you be trading £10 then lose £30 due to a price change?

[andyfuller]

My guess is you closed out your position inplay and there had been a late withdrawal at the start or something similar.

I have heard people complain about this kind of thing before only to find out it was their own error for not realising a withdrawal had happened.

When withdrawals happen close to the off BF will often leave them in the market rather than suspend the market and remove them (which I think is correct, I just wish they had a set procedure so we knew for sure what they would do).

Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt it was an error on BF's part - they don't happen very often and usually when they do they will have something in the T&C's to cover it and if not they will make something up

[ba1000]

Explanation: Backed a horse and an auto lay trade was entered. This happened just before the off. Bet Angel worked great as usual and showed that the trades were successful. I was in profit and I moved on to the next meeting. 10 to 20 mins later my account went down 30-33 pounds! I enquired with Bet"fair" as to whether they had any computer problems only to be told about a horse withdrawing at or near the off and there was no time to apply a price reduction factor being applied to the odds. This meant that the "odds" which I traded at were changed and instead off having a tiny profit i had a monster loss relative to the bank size.

I enquired again that this can not be fair only to be give a long list of the rules and regulations as follows and I quote from my email from Betfair:

"The reason that the odds on this bet have been reduced, is due to a non runner being declared after your bets have been matched as advised below. Please be advised that although your betting program was showing a profit, when scratching's like this do occur, this is the normal process in these circumstances, and can change your overall position on the race.

In this case the non runner was Laudatory which carried a reduction factor of 8.6%. These reduction factors can be found within the information box by each selection to give you an indication of what kind of percentage will be deducted in the event of it's withdrawal. They are betfair's equivalent to a bookmakers Rule 4 and are in place to protect our layers in the eventuality that the price matched does not reflect the smaller field.
A non runner explanation in reference to Horse Racing can be found with in the Rules and Regulations section under the 'About Us' Menu. Please click on the Horse image and scroll down to the betfair non-runner rule section.

For your convenience, I have included it below:

13.5 Betfair Non-Runner Rule ...."

this goes on to give details about the rules etc.

Any way I just want to to be careful, for your own information, to keep an eye on everything which is going on.

[andyfuller]

The only thing that I can possibly think has happened was that you closed out your trade inplay.

If you backed the horse and then laid it before the off both the back and the lay would have been reduced by the same reduction factor and as such your position would largely be the same as what it was before the withdrawal. There will be a slight difference but nothing like what you are describing.

However, if you had backed for example the horse before the off and then laid it to close your trade after the off the reduction factor would only apply to the back bet as the lay bet was placed inplay and obviously therefore has no reduction factor applied to it.

I personally can see no other explanation.

I have traded thousands upon thousands of horse racing markets with hundreds and hundreds of withdrawals and have never known anything like what you are describing happening to my trades.

You need to check the times at which your bets were placed exactly as I would be near on 1.01 that the bet that has screwed you has been placed inplay.

[ba1000]

Dont worry - just put this out there for people to be made aware off. My first trade was placed by me manually then the next trade was placed by BetAngel - I saw it greenup (and yes i think the lay was filled just at the off ie in play) but it had greenup'ed and I moved on. This happened 14th October starting to fade in my memory. Betfair applied the "correction" AFTER the race and there is nothing you can do to stop them - c'est la vie. I hope it does not happen to anyone else but you've been informed.

Let move on...

Does anybody actually make any money at this? If they do is it by scalping alone, trend following, in play or any other method.

...because this is draining my pockets and I am working for "the house" and they are still the only winners in this.

I am very keen to see the ten pound trader in action.

[Stewart]

Have patience. How long have you been trading?
It has taken me approx 4 months, full time trading to get in a position where I am making a profit. I also know that I have a lot more to learn and actively continue to study - this includes reviewing my own activity (videos, betting history, P&L, Staking, types of races) and that of others via website, blogs, videos etc.

I also know that I will also need to continue to learn as the market and/or landscape changes. If I don’t then my ability to exist will be jeopardised. Look at the Adapt and Survive blog if you haven’t already.

One thing you should have realised by now is that trading is a high turnover/low margin game. The better your margin the greater you chance of survival. Review Peter’s blog on this. Concentrate on your entry and exit points – when you start to get this right you can increase your turnover.

Listen to people like Andy Fuller, Peter Webb and Andy Richmond at the top level – listen also to others on this site who are fairly new to trading but have positive ideas and/or mindset. With experience comes skill - a good trader is not one-dimensional. The best will react to the market and adopt a strategy to the market, not force a strategy onto the market – scalping, swing trading, bookmaking, ditching and market making and if you can race read then taking a play in trade is a good option. Don’t also forget that there are lots of other sports to trade and these require a different set of strategies.

You will make many mistakes along the way but it is your ability to learn from these mistakes that ultimately will decide if you can profit from trading. In my opinion trading is a cross between Chess, Golf and Chicken! Stay focused, have a game plan, get into position, hold your nerve, get a feel for the ball and get into a rhythm – also get out (green or red) of the way before you get smashed!

I have made some great blunders such as letting a trade go in play deliberately; not checking that I had closed a losing trade properly, clicking on the close green up instead of setting a stop loss with a right click; getting into the market too soon, using too big stakes etc etc.

Sometimes it seems that the whole world is against you and sometimes you will profit from one of your mistakes - take it on the chin and move on. Learn from it but don't dwell on it – the only person to beat is yourself.

[J.S.]

In my opinion trading is a cross between Chess, Golf and Chicken!

[Bigmac1955]

I would be very interested in seeing a video of someone doing a ''ten pound trader'' strategy.

I trade in similar amounts - eg, starting bank of £100, but I just cannot grasp strategies of making this pay.

I will have several profitable races only to see it wiped out in one go!

Realising that the op usually trades in MUCH larger amounts, surely the mindset involved in doing ten pound trades comes into play?
Whereas I would have to think twice about my entry point, someone with a much larger bank at their disposal isnt going to give it a second thought?

If you lose your £100 bank, you will get it back on another couple of races using your usual higher stakes, whereas someone like me, if I lose my £100 bank, I have to wait till payday to start again.

[ba1000]

Explanation: Backed a horse and an auto lay trade was entered. This happened just before the off. Bet Angel worked great as usual and showed that the trades were successful. I was in profit and I moved on to the next meeting. 10 to 20 mins later my account went down 30-33 pounds! I enquired with Bet"fair" as to whether they had any computer problems only to be told about a horse withdrawing at or near the off and there was no time to apply a price reduction factor being applied to the odds. This meant that the "odds" which I traded at were changed and instead off having a tiny profit i had a monster loss relative to the bank size.

I enquired again that this can not be fair only to be give a long list of the rules and regulations as follows and I quote from my email from Betfair:

"The reason that the odds on this bet have been reduced, is due to a non runner being declared after your bets have been matched as advised below. Please be advised that although your betting program was showing a profit, when scratching's like this do occur, this is the normal process in these circumstances, and can change your overall position on the race.

In this case the non runner was Laudatory which carried a reduction factor of 8.6%. These reduction factors can be found within the information box by each selection to give you an indication of what kind of percentage will be deducted in the event of it's withdrawal. They are betfair's equivalent to a bookmakers Rule 4 and are in place to protect our layers in the eventuality that the price matched does not reflect the smaller field.
A non runner explanation in reference to Horse Racing can be found with in the Rules and Regulations section under the 'About Us' Menu. Please click on the Horse image and scroll down to the betfair non-runner rule section.

For your convenience, I have included it below:

13.5 Betfair Non-Runner Rule ...."

this goes on to give details about the rules etc.

Any way I just want to to be careful, for your own information, to keep an eye on everything which is going on.

This is the original message (I had forgotton all the details).

[andyfuller]

To keep this discussion separate to the other thread, can you confirm you were purely trading, you backed for example at 6.0 on horse A and laid at 5.9 on horse A?

You weren't bookmaking or anything else were you?

[andyfuller]

The reason I asked for details of the bets was because you said on the other thread:

I have just looked back at the event in question at what really happened.

I was being disciplined and trading pre race and greening up before each race started!

The incident in question I HAD GREENED UP prerace!!!!! I did not let it go inplay.

The whole issue revolves around the horse being withdrawn at the off and Betfair applying a reduction factor AFTER the race!!!!!!!!!

I had already moved on to the next race thinking that I had just made a few pence however 5 minutes later a whooping £30 ish had been withdrawn from my account.

I queried this with Betfair and they are allowed do this!! I was presented with the rules and regulations. There is nothing a trader can do about it.

This is why I was so upset about it - it whiped out days of painstaking profit - and it was not my fault.

So I assumed you must have the bet details as previously you said you closed out inplay but now were saying all trading was pre race.

[ba1000]

Sorry Andy didnt mean to quote on this thread.