Thanks again for the replies.
I'll definitely give it another crack and I absolutely will not be trading in-play. As i said, i had gotten much better at taking a loss and moving on, before i started actually trading in-play. Lesson learned (hopefully) and strictly pre-race from now on.
I also hope that others continue to post their totals. These guys took the risks and put in the hard work, so it encourages me to see what can be achieved.
Just blown another bank
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El Flaco Explosivo
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:02 am
Marc, i will be gradually trying to get it back, i learned not to chase a long time agoconvoysur-2 wrote:ferru-jeff.
yes i should have said gradually get it back.thats what i meant,sorry,
i have blown more banks than i can remember ,im good at what i do in the markets,but if my psychology is wrong on the day .im in trouble,i worket very hard this last 3 weeks no days off and 16 hour days ,i did really well,
today i made a horrible mistake ,i profiles a race picked a horse that could win but on record was sure to trade very short,i assessed my position in the morning am and back him for a large amount at what i believed was the top of his range,i could have traded out very well for nice profit before the off ,but waiting on his front running and best draw i wanted more .and i got it ,,for about 1 second,
when i had backed him hard ,i had laid him back in running and had a keep bet ,went off to make a coffee ,have a piss restarted my pc ,opened the screen here we go happy days ,but i couldent see i had already laid back in running i took my hundreds out,BUT WAIT ,,WHAT THE FUCK .IM RED FOR HUNDREDS ...couldent see the keep bet after restarting .i had laid him for alot of money ,
Shit happens,
it will take me a while to get back ,but i will,
i feel like such an idiot making a stupid mistake like that,
Marc
. Have a good easter mate and best of luck.Marc - We all make mistakes. I think the important thing is to work out why the mistake happened, and learn from it.
In this instance, I would say the lesson to be learned is to try to be more attentive when trading. I'm sure most of us have made the mistake of taking something for granted and been punished for it though, so you're not alone...
Jeff
In this instance, I would say the lesson to be learned is to try to be more attentive when trading. I'm sure most of us have made the mistake of taking something for granted and been punished for it though, so you're not alone...
Jeff
convoysur-2 wrote: i feel like such an idiot making a stupid mistake like that,
Marc
Last edited by Iron on Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know this sounds daft but most of my big losses now come from Tennis or Football matches by forgetting that I have opened a trade on them. But even then some of these turn out to be good 'trades'. Probably about once a month I'll forget that I opened a position only to jump out of the bath when I suddenly remembered I was going to trade a match!
I've been thinking in the last hour about the whole winning / losing debate.
If you look at my P&L from today. Best three results £237, £212 & £204 (You will note the Nott total I posted isn't in that list). My worse losers were £55, £50 & £31.
I could easily tell you why the winners worked and how I anticipated them working. I haven't got a scooby do how the losses occurred, because I didn't anticipate them. I just did my best to minimise them. I tried my best to not make a loss but did, so I can't tell you how to avoid them as I didn't, else they wouldn't be losses.
If you cut back to last week the top and bottom three are £249, £210 & £183 vs £32, £24 & £23. Both weekends I'd see as being well inside my normal trading, in fact quite dull. Nothing spectacular at either end. But, of course, I'm incredibly well practiced.
I think there is little or no point in looking at mine as, apart from total balls ups, I tend to keep them under control. I do that by simply realising that it's not going to work / I got it wrong or trading to a much small net loss. Rarely do I let it get out of control.
So I don't think there is anything to learn by me posting these losses (or worse ones). I didn't know they were going to occur, so I can't really learn from them and neither can anybody else.
But.......I think the answer is for me to look at other traders and comment on their positions. That would seem to be the most sensible way to point out errors. So I'm going to see if I can do that, as that seems a constructive way to look at losses.
I'm mulling bringing some traders into the office and looking over their shoulders, that would work.
If you look at my P&L from today. Best three results £237, £212 & £204 (You will note the Nott total I posted isn't in that list). My worse losers were £55, £50 & £31.
I could easily tell you why the winners worked and how I anticipated them working. I haven't got a scooby do how the losses occurred, because I didn't anticipate them. I just did my best to minimise them. I tried my best to not make a loss but did, so I can't tell you how to avoid them as I didn't, else they wouldn't be losses.
If you cut back to last week the top and bottom three are £249, £210 & £183 vs £32, £24 & £23. Both weekends I'd see as being well inside my normal trading, in fact quite dull. Nothing spectacular at either end. But, of course, I'm incredibly well practiced.
I think there is little or no point in looking at mine as, apart from total balls ups, I tend to keep them under control. I do that by simply realising that it's not going to work / I got it wrong or trading to a much small net loss. Rarely do I let it get out of control.
So I don't think there is anything to learn by me posting these losses (or worse ones). I didn't know they were going to occur, so I can't really learn from them and neither can anybody else.
But.......I think the answer is for me to look at other traders and comment on their positions. That would seem to be the most sensible way to point out errors. So I'm going to see if I can do that, as that seems a constructive way to look at losses.
I'm mulling bringing some traders into the office and looking over their shoulders, that would work.
You know when I won a major lottery prize in '12, Lotto NZ were keen for me to write up my story. And they have a list of 'winners stories' on the website to try to rope people into buying more tickets. I'm not trying to be cynical here, just pointing out how the posting of 'winners totals' can sometimes come across:
https://mylotto.co.nz/winners-stories/
It is all well and good if people could just keep shrugging off blown banks and keep learning, the problem is that blowing a big bank is often 'non-recoverable', in the sense that people don't have constant access to an endless supply of cash. I'm sure that blown banks are what is knocking out lots of aspiring traders/punters. They lose the betting bank, have to take a break, and just don't come back.
I learned that I'm a punter, not a trader; my problem was I used to keep trying to mix them up, but I now agree with Euler that trying to mix up punting or trading is a recipe for catastrophe.
Trading I don't enjoy and I'm shit at it. Punting I do enjoy and I can make some money out of it. The choice for me is clear
My modus operandi will generally be In-Play lays and Pre-race backs(taking a long-term back position pre-race and holding until the off). My pre-race backs are basically still gambles, but with the twist that I will still hedge (green or red-up) at the off. Never let pre-race trades go to completion! So the rule here is not to mix the pre-off and in-play. If its pre-race, always green up at the off or earlier, if its designed to be in-play, only then it stays in-play.
Unless you are an expert at trading, stop trying to follow bloody trends in horse racing. You will always lose.
Now before Jeff has a go at me again, yes, I'm sure that an expert at trading can successfully make money following trends, but for everyone else (non-experts), it's the quickest way to blow your bank. Unless you know exactly what is driving the price movements and exactly the price indicators to watch for, following trends will always do your bollocks in.
Best strategy for the non-trader or newbie is always therefore to bet against the crowd, simply looking for long-term value and holding. Very ancient and simple, but still very effective.
Cheers.
https://mylotto.co.nz/winners-stories/
It is all well and good if people could just keep shrugging off blown banks and keep learning, the problem is that blowing a big bank is often 'non-recoverable', in the sense that people don't have constant access to an endless supply of cash. I'm sure that blown banks are what is knocking out lots of aspiring traders/punters. They lose the betting bank, have to take a break, and just don't come back.
I learned that I'm a punter, not a trader; my problem was I used to keep trying to mix them up, but I now agree with Euler that trying to mix up punting or trading is a recipe for catastrophe.
Trading I don't enjoy and I'm shit at it. Punting I do enjoy and I can make some money out of it. The choice for me is clear
My modus operandi will generally be In-Play lays and Pre-race backs(taking a long-term back position pre-race and holding until the off). My pre-race backs are basically still gambles, but with the twist that I will still hedge (green or red-up) at the off. Never let pre-race trades go to completion! So the rule here is not to mix the pre-off and in-play. If its pre-race, always green up at the off or earlier, if its designed to be in-play, only then it stays in-play.
Unless you are an expert at trading, stop trying to follow bloody trends in horse racing. You will always lose.
Now before Jeff has a go at me again, yes, I'm sure that an expert at trading can successfully make money following trends, but for everyone else (non-experts), it's the quickest way to blow your bank. Unless you know exactly what is driving the price movements and exactly the price indicators to watch for, following trends will always do your bollocks in.
Best strategy for the non-trader or newbie is always therefore to bet against the crowd, simply looking for long-term value and holding. Very ancient and simple, but still very effective.
Cheers.
Last edited by Zenyatta on Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
How is a newbie supposed to find value?
And how is finding value simple? Surely you need to analyse a race in some depth to be confident that the market has mis-priced a horse.
Jeff
And how is finding value simple? Surely you need to analyse a race in some depth to be confident that the market has mis-priced a horse.
Jeff
Zenyatta wrote: Best strategy for the non-trader or newbie is always therefore to bet against the crowd, simply looking for long-term value and holding. Very ancient and simple, but still very effective.
Cheers.
I have said this many times during my 6 years with BA, and I'll say it again - In many ways, Psychology is more important than the ability to spot trends, read graphs, or creating sophisticated bots
The biggest reason for failure, and banks being blown away in a heartbeat, is because traders cannot accept a red screen. Most of us have turned to trading from being a punter, and therefore we are wired to want a run for our money
The biggest reason for failure, and banks being blown away in a heartbeat, is because traders cannot accept a red screen. Most of us have turned to trading from being a punter, and therefore we are wired to want a run for our money
I understand what you're saying PeterEuler wrote:I know it's trendy to say your an idiot and post a loss, but if you look at today's racing I earned in excess of £2k and have very few losses to talk about my worst was £50 odd. So should I make up a loss and post that to be trendy?
I know I'm at the top of my game etc. etc. but it's not fair to say to people who have traded well are attempting to mislead when they post a nice total. I'm trying to be an exemplar and to point out it's still possible to do well.
Also, not sure what you can learn from looking at a loss, a lot of people don't have too many problems finding them without help .
However, whilst your trading wins are absolutely mindblowing, you're also in a position of trying to sell the benefits of BA
Therefore, it's in your interest to show green screens, as opposed to red
I don't remember Adam Heathcote getting flak for posting his totals, which he did on a daily basis for ~6 months....and he certainly inspired hundreds of traders to do better. It is necessary for someone to illustrate that its possible to make decent money from Betfair but to be fair to both sides of the debate its also good that people document their losing experiences.
We can all learn from each other and that's what this forum is supposed to support. El Flaco's post about his experience in losing his bank, something a newbie can expect to do several times (there are prior warnings in the forum) is just as valuable a comment as the more experienced and seasoned traders posting details of their winning experiences.
The first serves as a warning and the latter as an inspiration.
We can all learn from each other and that's what this forum is supposed to support. El Flaco's post about his experience in losing his bank, something a newbie can expect to do several times (there are prior warnings in the forum) is just as valuable a comment as the more experienced and seasoned traders posting details of their winning experiences.
The first serves as a warning and the latter as an inspiration.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
When I was struggling on my way to making a success on Betfair I often found a negative in people posting big results. They were trying to sell me something or they were manipulating the markets and were the reason for my losses for example, but I started to realise that that was usually just my state of mind and quite often me looking for a way to justify my poor performance by blaming others.
Once I started to change my mindset it had a big positive impact on my trading, I accepted it was my own fault more often than not but still aware that sometimes there was just nothing I could do. For example Betfair going down, what I could do was have my back up systems in place and be very aware of the rules as to how bets would be treated but I couldn't control Betfair's reliability so just had to accept it.
So I would agree some balance of losses and wins are needed but as Peter has said he doesn't really have many, nor did I so it is difficult for some people to post them. I never blew a bank for example, also from memory my biggest ever losing day was less than £100 in all my time on Betfair. But my biggest win was a good 4 figures.
But don't we already have the balance? This thread is part of that balance, someone has blown 'another' bank. There are countless other such threads it is just that those who post the big wins aren't the ones posting the big losses. It is quite possible that as Peter also said else where they would need to manufacture a loss in order to post it.
Once I started to change my mindset it had a big positive impact on my trading, I accepted it was my own fault more often than not but still aware that sometimes there was just nothing I could do. For example Betfair going down, what I could do was have my back up systems in place and be very aware of the rules as to how bets would be treated but I couldn't control Betfair's reliability so just had to accept it.
Moving on to the negative screen shots I don't agree with Peter's comment above. It may be true for him but I found that recording and watching back my negative trades was one of the best things I ever did. I didn't anticipate a trade would be a losing trade, I was aware that I would have them, it is part of trading, another thing it took me a long time to understand and accept. But by watching them back I was able quite often to tell how to avoid them going forward even though at the time of the trade I didn't know how to avoid them. That allowed me to avoid making the losses again.Euler wrote:I could easily tell you why the winners worked and how I anticipated them working. I haven't got a scooby do how the losses occurred, because I didn't anticipate them. I just did my best to minimise them. I tried my best to not make a loss but did, so I can't tell you how to avoid them as I didn't, else they wouldn't be losses.
So I would agree some balance of losses and wins are needed but as Peter has said he doesn't really have many, nor did I so it is difficult for some people to post them. I never blew a bank for example, also from memory my biggest ever losing day was less than £100 in all my time on Betfair. But my biggest win was a good 4 figures.
But don't we already have the balance? This thread is part of that balance, someone has blown 'another' bank. There are countless other such threads it is just that those who post the big wins aren't the ones posting the big losses. It is quite possible that as Peter also said else where they would need to manufacture a loss in order to post it.
Last edited by andyfuller on Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
When I made my post earlier in this thread I was not trying to be "trendy" or indeed disrespectful to anyone. Especially Peter who I have the utmost respect for. I was just trying to reassure some of the guys trying to run before they can walk that even experienced traders can get it badly wrong and revert to all the bad habits that have taken so many years to eradicate.
I often write stuff that is misunderstood. I will try again with more carefully chosen words.
I just wanted to question the point of a screenshot. No one is any doubt that Euler is probably the best trader of all. I am not in the same league and know of no one who is.
Like I said. I have been guilty of this myself. I was questioning my own behaviour as much as anyone elses. I didn't say that people should be posting up losses. I merely questioned the benefit of posting wins that are bigger than the amount many traders even have in the bank.
Perhaps it does inspire them. I have a different view, that's all. There are different sides to the debate. We don't all have to agree do we?
So I would like to apologise to Euler as he obviously interpreted my post as an attack on him personally. It certainly was not. So Peter please accept my apology.
I would also like to say I am chuffed to have been called "trendy" - I have only just cut my hair so I don't look like the lead singer of Def Leppard anymore. So that's a first for me.
I have however been called an Idiot lots of times, so that's cool
I often write stuff that is misunderstood. I will try again with more carefully chosen words.
I just wanted to question the point of a screenshot. No one is any doubt that Euler is probably the best trader of all. I am not in the same league and know of no one who is.
Like I said. I have been guilty of this myself. I was questioning my own behaviour as much as anyone elses. I didn't say that people should be posting up losses. I merely questioned the benefit of posting wins that are bigger than the amount many traders even have in the bank.
Perhaps it does inspire them. I have a different view, that's all. There are different sides to the debate. We don't all have to agree do we?
So I would like to apologise to Euler as he obviously interpreted my post as an attack on him personally. It certainly was not. So Peter please accept my apology.
I would also like to say I am chuffed to have been called "trendy" - I have only just cut my hair so I don't look like the lead singer of Def Leppard anymore. So that's a first for me.
I have however been called an Idiot lots of times, so that's cool it is a funny old game this. why are we all drawn to it like moths to the lightbulb, even those who have lost lots of money over the years? every time you sit down in front of your screen, you have the potential to earn hundreds and in some cases thousands. to those on average incomes, that can be equal to a weeks work. When we see screen shots like Peter's it is mind blowing because when you multiply those figs by 30 or even 365, it equals total financial freedom. the best thing is; I don't even think Peter shows his best screen shots, because if he did, people would be calling him a liar and a means to self promote Betangel ( that's what happened with Adam too). If he were to show you his monthly totals, it would spook most traders.
I think its not useful showing either all green screens nor all red in isolation. I would much rather see the full days results as it gives you a balanced view. for me it does inspire me to carry on and crack it. I made a lot of money on the auto side of trading but I must admit, the pre race is a different kettle of fish. even though I 'know' exactly what to do, doing it is another thing completely. there have been some very intelligent people visit the forum over the last six years or so (people recently like switest for instance; clearly an intelligent person, who couldn't crack it),
I like the idea of getting a group of traders into your offices Peter, a practical workshop would be a good and logical addition to the academy. I think most people who have been doing this for a few years are probably not far off the mark, Mugs videos have been very helpful for me as most people learn by being shown and then adapting to their own style.
the fact of the matter is; success in trading is measured by your overall P&L, you can't fool yourself into thinking your a good trader if your showing a negative each week. Screen shots and publishing P&Ls do serve to motivate, as it shows what is possible, even if it is slightly out of reach of most traders
regards
Peter
I think its not useful showing either all green screens nor all red in isolation. I would much rather see the full days results as it gives you a balanced view. for me it does inspire me to carry on and crack it. I made a lot of money on the auto side of trading but I must admit, the pre race is a different kettle of fish. even though I 'know' exactly what to do, doing it is another thing completely. there have been some very intelligent people visit the forum over the last six years or so (people recently like switest for instance; clearly an intelligent person, who couldn't crack it),
I like the idea of getting a group of traders into your offices Peter, a practical workshop would be a good and logical addition to the academy. I think most people who have been doing this for a few years are probably not far off the mark, Mugs videos have been very helpful for me as most people learn by being shown and then adapting to their own style.
the fact of the matter is; success in trading is measured by your overall P&L, you can't fool yourself into thinking your a good trader if your showing a negative each week. Screen shots and publishing P&Ls do serve to motivate, as it shows what is possible, even if it is slightly out of reach of most traders
regards
Peter
You don't have to apologise to Peter - he's got pretty thick skin!mugsgame wrote:I merely questioned the benefit of posting wins that are bigger than the amount many traders even have in the bank.
Perhaps it does inspire them. I have a different view, that's all. There are different sides to the debate. We don't all have to agree do we?
I agree with what you're saying though. If someone has £250 in their account and are struggling to break even, then seeing green screens from other traders for £1000 is possibly going to create a negative attitude as opposed to a positive........oh FUCK why can't I even get a £10 green......perhaps I need to gamble more!!
Perhaps it's our conservative resentful traits as a nation - I know Peter has shown his appreciation for American attitudes, and how they are inspired by other's success, whereas us Brits just get pissed off
But, like I said in a previous post - Peter is governed by a conflict of interest. He wants to make sure we all keep paying him £150 per year, so wants to show struggling traders what BA can do for you