Finally made it as a professional 'full-time' trader

The sport of kings.
andyfuller
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

Some interesting thoughts The Nuts.

Just a few pointers from my view point, you are correct to look at the opportunity cost of trading, what you could get else where.

For example if you could earn £60k in the year and would be able to do the same in the subsequent years you need to take this all into account.

You have also seemingly just divided what you earn now to work out what you need to make from trading, but are you also taking into account things such as pension, holiday leave, sick leave (Betfair don't pay you when you are ill :o ), the impact on your employability/cv etc. All these need to be factored in.

Then there is the elephant in the room, you need to think about the Premium Charge and what that impact could have on you.

As to what others think about it/you, if it really bothers you that much spend time thinking about it but if they are true friends they should support you once you have made your decision but do take what they say on board. Don't just ignore it, they will be saying with the best of intentions but as for the others, your energy would be better spent thinking about the trading, not what others think of you. It is amazing how people's opinions change if you make a success of it.

Also think about x years down the line or when you are on your death bed, will you be lying there thinking I wonder what would have happened had I given it a go, or, at least I didn't take the safe option and gave it a good go for good or bad.

As for the label of professional, forget about it it is just an ego thing, people seemingly want to stick a label on everything.

Good luck in whatever you decide, just remember you could only make the decision at the time with the facts that were available at the time, not those that were available after the event.
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LeTiss
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You're right - a professional trader is somebody who relies on this as their main source of income.

The levels required mean jack shit - anybody who can do this for a living and not have a 'normal' job is successful.

I posted ages ago about my finances when I went self-employed. I had just been made redundant and needed £1500 per month to pay for my flat & other expenses. I wanted to give this 6 months of 100% focus, without dipping into the BF bank or profits to live, so I put £9k in my current account to cover those 6 months expenses. I also thought that 1% profit per day should be fairly comfortable based on my weekend/evening performances, so if I needed 30 days of £50 to make my £1500, then a BF bank of £5000 will provide that 1%

Therefore, I needed £14k to go self-employed

That was June 2008, and I'm still here
THENUTS
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 pm

andyfuller wrote:
For example if you could earn £60k in the year and would be able to do the same in the subsequent years you need to take this all into account.

Also think about x years down the line or when you are on your death bed, will you be lying there thinking I wonder what would have happened had I given it a go, or, at least I didn't take the safe option and gave it a good go for good or bad.

Good luck in whatever you decide, just remember you could only make the decision at the time with the facts that were available at the time, not those that were available after the event.
Thanks Andy - your comments are both appreciated and helpful especially knowing that they have come from someone that has " been there and done it ". Your middle paragraph above is the part that resonates with me the most. Something that stuck with me in one of Steve Jobs speeches was " Do what you love ". For some reason i always loved Tennis , Golf and Horse Racing and always got an incredible " buzz " from betting and now trading - there is something inside me that just does it for me and i do love it. I think if i didnt give it a go i would look back and regret it and i have a 12 month window coming up where i am financially in a position to do so. Thanks for your feedback.

LeTiss wrote:

I posted ages ago about my finances when I went self-employed. I had just been made redundant and needed £1500 per month to pay for my flat & other expenses. I wanted to give this 6 months of 100% focus, without dipping into the BF bank or profits to live, so I put £9k in my current account to cover those 6 months expenses. I also thought that 1% profit per day should be fairly comfortable based on my weekend/evening performances, so if I needed 30 days of £50 to make my £1500, then a BF bank of £5000 will provide that 1%

Therefore, I needed £14k to go self-employed

That was June 2008, and I'm still here
Thanks LeTiss for taking the time to comment. Very very spooky to read your comments. I am currently running the numbers myself and the process you decribe above is almost identical to my current thought process so its good to know that i'm thinking the right way. I am also looking at depositing 6 months living expenses into my current account so that i dont have think about that at all. i'm looking at a starting bank of £7500 but was thinking more along the lines of 2% return per day ( hope thats not too ambitious )and basing it on a 20 day trading month and never having more than 2% of my bank as a liability on any one trade ( my exposure at many points could be much higher than that so Betfair crashes do concern me a lot and not sure how to mitigate that but if im exposing 20-30% of my bank at certain times i need to think of a contingency for that )

Anyway , its good to know that i'm thinking along the same lines as someone that has actually been doing it for 6 years so thank you for both for your feedback
weemac
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Targets are a waste of time.

Making 2% per day sounds so easy, but it's just not that simple. If you break even for 2 days, you have to earn triple your target, (an astonishing 6% of your entire bank !) the very next day to get to where you want to be.

And if you hit your daily target by midday, what are you supposed to do? Stop,and miss good opportunities? Carry on, and risk losing your 2%? If you think like this, you've got no chance. Shouldn't a successful trader just do what he does well as well as he can, without looking at the clock or the wallet?

Why pressure yourself by thinking in terms of the speed of the earth's rotation around its axis allied to a number plucked out of thin air? Why not target a quadrupling of your bank twice a year, every year? It's exactly the same thing, but don't your eyes fairly pop out of your head when you consider how tall an order it really is?

Oh, and if anyone thinks making 1% per day is twice as easy as making 2%, you're in for a bit of a shock.
TradeMeister92
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:06 pm

[quote="THENUTS"]Interesting comments.

" prossesional trader " seems to be a pretty subjective term. Proffessional is defined as :

"someone engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur"

Using this definition it is clearly much easier for some people to be a " professional " than it is for others as it is well documented that in sports trading making £50 a day is significantly easier to acheive than £500 per day so it depends what your individual requirements / aspirations are.

Hi there nuts, I completely agree with the professional comment and have only considered myself being a 'pro trader' since I hit an average of £420 per day over the past 6 months. That being said, I would continue to trade on Betfair full-time even if those earnings were at £50 per day because I wake up every morning having a genuine excitement to trade(/work) for the day. Of course, the other incentive is that my days usually consist of trading horse racing between 1pm-4pm with some night meetings thrown in about once a fortnight.

I fully believe that if your full-time job is something that makes you happy then you should, by all means, continue to do that thing. I have worked in an office setting before and after that experience, I feel extremely fortunate to have found trading and feel as though it has significantly turned my life around for the better
THENUTS
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TradeMeister92 wrote:
have only considered myself being a 'pro trader' since I hit an average of £420 per day over the past 6 months.
That's impressive. If i assume 6 days a week then thats £65,000 clear net profit as you say above in just the just the last 6 months alone. Not long before you hit the dreaded premium charge.

Do you mind if i ask the kind of strategies that you use ? i mean just broadly speaking of course - Is it scalping , swing , in play , a mixture of those or something else

I noticed that you posted a single days trading showing £400 odd profit. Do you feel comfortable posting the last 3 months ?
andyfuller
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

I would suggest watching this show as mentioned in the thread below:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4433&p=80459&hilit ... ute#p80459

Show link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej7SgXXpQ1k

There is a guy in the second episode that was impressive and you could see how he approached things very differently to the others.
THENUTS
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 pm

andyfuller wrote:I would suggest watching this show as mentioned in the thread below:

Show link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej7SgXXpQ1k

There is a guy in the second episode that was impressive and you could see how he approached things very differently to the others.
Thanks again Andy for pointing me in the right direction. I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

Made a few notes along the way and it seems the same messages come across whether you scour the forums , get advice from successful traders or watch programmes like these. The things that seems to stand out the most is not necessarily the trades ( of course you need strategies ) that you take but how you manage yourself in the trading process :

Risk management
Keeping control over your emotions
Discipline
The ability to accept and take a loss on a losing position

Interesting that the guy who was the most succesful in the second episode made a specific comment about going against the herd rather than with it.

Its all good stuff - looking forward to watching the rest of the series.
chuck536
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:41 pm

THENUTS wrote:
That's impressive. If i assume 6 days a week then thats £65,000 clear net profit as you say above in just the just the last 6 months alone. Not long before you hit the dreaded premium charge.
I think you need to take a look at Premium Charges again :shock:

You only get a 1k allowance 20% after that....

Agree with a lot of things said on here, comments by andy in particular. The freedom it can bring can be pretty awesome though which is something I've not seen anyone mention.

The steve jobs comment about 'do something you love' is very important towards achieving well. The upper bands of Premium Charge though could bring on a quick divorce from something you once loved.... or at the very least a bitter taste. Im sure Andy will back me up on that :)

Sounds a little negative but its best to check it all out first, at the very least start trading on Betdaq at the same time to delay the inevitable.
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jimrobo
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:49 pm

even at 2k per week you are only looking at a take home of 40k once you've hit the ceiling. Not many people will reach that level in the current market conditions. Less so if the trend continues.
lord
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:26 pm

Always best to have a back up plan or another revenue stream or a profession you can return to. On other threads there is discussion on lack of marketing on another exchange, Betfair becoming more of a bookie, and Betfair withdrawing from Australia. I would be less worried about anyone's abilty to trade profitably than the future of Exchange markets as a whole.
dgfant
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:35 am

Congratulations TradeMeister92!!

Would you recommend some material, books, videos, etc that was useful for you?
JayBee
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:26 am

TradeMeister92 wrote:Thank you for taking the time to read my first (of hopefully many) posts, please find below my P&L between 1-4pm from yesterday
I can only assume he blew up, like so many who boast about a lucky win.
andyfuller
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

andyfuller wrote:I would suggest watching this show as mentioned in the thread below:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4433&p=80459&hilit ... ute#p80459

Show link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej7SgXXpQ1k

There is a guy in the second episode that was impressive and you could see how he approached things very differently to the others.
I came across via twitter a good playlist of Youtube videos where Charlie Burton, the guy who was good in the above second episode of Millions by the minute, has been interviewed on various aspects of trading. He is a financial trader but much of what he discusses is applicable to the sports markets.

They are all very short and well worth a watch imo.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... vlJ1Qxjs1w
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Dallas
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Some very good clips there thanks for posting that Andy
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