Trading What I see !?

Learn sports betting strategies and discuss key factors to consider when placing a bet.
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goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:43 am
You can certainly make money using Guardian, what I meant was that it's harder if you only use Guardian, and for certain techniques it's not as adept as a piece of bespoke software would be. That's understandable because Guardian is an incredible Jack of all trades, not just tuned for one specific job.

Sample size etc : As I've mentioned you'll never get a big enough sample just running stuff in live, you'll go broke before you do. Use your skills to harvest data, and begin to refine your strategies using that. In six months you'll have a data set that's definately a large enough sample for anything, and you can try ideas and prove and disprove things to your heart's content. You can even start to get some sort of data together using BA/Excel without having to dive straight into the API, although that's probably where you'd want to go eventually for scale and granularity.

...Take your current strategy,
  • What's a spike anyway? Is it relative to the expected market total? Is it relative to the prev 2 mins vol? Is it relative to the price/vol? How about maidens vs handicaps?

    Does a spike cause shortening, lengthening, with the spike direction, against it.....and is that just for the next 10s or the next 30s, or to BSP?

    Do stop losses and take profits have any advantage/disadvantage, and if so then what %age or maybe it should be a time stop not cash?

    How about staking? Level or By Liability?

    All runners? Or just the fav? Or everything priced below X?

    Backs, lays, or either, and do you flipflop positions on a second spike the other way?
You will NEVER answer those questions without decent data, for no other reason than the number of permutations and parameters would take thousands of years to cycle through.....and then picture trying to modify/tune that strategy for dogs, horses, uk, aus, win, place, or maybe football. Do you really want to do that in live? Or do you just want to drop another dataset in the same model and press a button, or leave 20 variations running overnight and wake up to the results.

I'm NOT saying that people can't make money using Guardian without doing all that, they do, but those that do usually have a pretty solid idea of what they know works and are looking to scale up if they can't physically exploit every situation, or just want to execute more efficiently. You need to bring everything you've got to the trading table and work to those strengths, you're clearly not a devotee of the gambling world but you know a bit of tech, so use it rather than trying to become an expert on punter psychology and their tendency (or not) to follow trends. It's obviously going to need some effort and hard work, so it's down to you and how you view that investment/reward equation and your estimate of your odds of success with/without.

Long one, sorry about that, but the pros and cons and details would need many long nights in the pub to get through. Anyway I'm not here to make you do anything you don't want to do, but I do think you need to open your eyes to how hard edges are to find, especially the way you're choosing to find them. It won't guarantee success but imo it'll take you from a 1% chance to maybe a 50% chance.
Thanks Shaun, this is what I was trying to elude to earlier, one with my lacking of manual experience, means I don't really know a solid idea to automate.. and for most newbies that is going to be the case. Thus Guardian alone is not going to really provide a "dataset" and an environment to model 1000s of strategies quickly. So yes, I know you've told me so, but I was dillusional that I thought I did knew a solid idea, that's my fault..
I do think a lot of newbies, especially programmer types, may see all the Guardian marketing, and think they can just pick up some sample rules and make something work, unless you're an already profitable manual trader, I don't think that is possible...
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goat68
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

beermonsterman wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:07 am
Some good reading their I missed out on yesterday good to see people jumping in to give some pointers when someone is trying hard but feels like they not getting anywhere keep going Goat you will crack it eventually I may be an exception to others due to how long I've been doing this and still not profitable but I know this I may not be a fast learner but my perseverance is now starting to pay off things are coming together at last and I believe they will for you too
thanks Beer, i'm going to "Persevere" (it got us to Mars yesterday!), with some new bots based on some of the ideas you actually mentioned a while back, cheers
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wearthefoxhat
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goat68 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:57 pm
I'm a decent programmer, and like coding, so will continue bots for a while, but I think it might lose it's attraction if it's not producing any results...
Have you considered Excel linked to Guardian?

VBA advanced techniques might allow you more control with the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeKL_n6SiYY


Topic on SV in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20724
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

wearthefoxhat wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:36 am
goat68 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:57 pm
I'm a decent programmer, and like coding, so will continue bots for a while, but I think it might lose it's attraction if it's not producing any results...
Have you considered Excel linked to Guardian?

VBA advanced techniques might allow you more control with the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeKL_n6SiYY


Topic on SV in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20724
That is a possibility, maybe I ought to invest in getting Office365
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Trader724
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

Another option would be to hire someone to do all this for you, whether they are programmers or Excel masters, they will certainly do what you need in a much shorter time than you, there are apps and websites where you can get in touch with them and negotiate prices.
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speedyhamster
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:58 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:43 am


...Take your current strategy,
  • What's a spike anyway? Is it relative to the expected market total? Is it relative to the prev 2 mins vol? Is it relative to the price/vol? How about maidens vs handicaps?

    Does a spike cause shortening, lengthening, with the spike direction, against it.....and is that just for the next 10s or the next 30s, or to BSP?

    Do stop losses and take profits have any advantage/disadvantage, and if so then what %age or maybe it should be a time stop not cash?

    How about staking? Level or By Liability?

    All runners? Or just the fav? Or everything priced below X?

    Backs, lays, or either, and do you flipflop positions on a second spike the other way?
You will NEVER answer those questions without decent data, for no other reason than the number of permutations and parameters would take thousands of years to cycle through.....and then picture trying to modify/tune that strategy for dogs, horses, uk, aus, win, place, or maybe football. Do you really want to do that in live? Or do you just want to drop another dataset in the same model and press a button, or leave 20 variations running overnight and wake up to the results.
I'm NOT saying that people can't make money using Guardian without doing all that, they do, but those that do usually have a pretty solid idea of what they know works and are looking to scale up if they can't physically exploit every situation, or just want to execute more efficiently. You need to bring everything you've got to the trading table and work to those strengths
Spot on
, you're clearly not a devotee of the gambling world but you know a bit of tech, so use it rather than trying to become an expert on punter psychology and their tendency (or not) to follow trends. It's obviously going to need some effort and hard work, so it's down to you and how you view that investment/reward equation and your estimate of your odds of success with/without.

Long one, sorry about that, but the pros and cons and details would need many long nights in the pub to get through. Anyway I'm not here to make you do anything you don't want to do, but I do think you need to open your eyes to how hard edges are to find, especially the way you're choosing to find them. It won't guarantee success but imo it'll take you from a 1% chance to maybe a 50% chance.
You don't need to answer those questions (not to look to see if an edge is there) a few months looking at candle charts with volume bars (2 to 5 second intervals ) shows a pattern that happens way over 50% of the time, so learn to take advantage.
You must learn to trust your edge. An edge simply means there is a higher probability of one outcome
than another. The greater your confidence, the easier it will be to execute your trades, how will telling yourself that edges are hard to find help your trading?, it will simply turn into a negative belief

What moves a market? what do candle charts show?
so looking at what happens on the candle chart will show you how often that a spike snaps back (or continue in the same direction), can convert that into a % and therefore you can see if an edge is there.
If an edge is there you have a foundation to collect data on, and then to be able to code and refine a bot
Last edited by speedyhamster on Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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speedyhamster
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:58 am

When my subconscious mind sees a car is probably going to hit my car it will execute an automated task to press the brake hard (emergency stop) before my conscious mind has even thought about it. The same automated habits can be learned in trading to automatically execute your trades when your subconscious mind spots an opportunity.
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goat68
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:15 pm
Another option would be to hire someone to do all this for you, whether they are programmers or Excel masters, they will certainly do what you need in a much shorter time than you, there are apps and websites where you can get in touch with them and negotiate prices.
That's not why i'm doing this
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Trader724
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

goat68 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:08 pm
Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:15 pm
Another option would be to hire someone to do all this for you, whether they are programmers or Excel masters, they will certainly do what you need in a much shorter time than you, there are apps and websites where you can get in touch with them and negotiate prices.
That's not why i'm doing this
I know, but you will save a lot of time because you will practically work with much better tools.
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speedyhamster
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:58 am

Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:18 pm
goat68 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:08 pm
Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:15 pm
Another option would be to hire someone to do all this for you, whether they are programmers or Excel masters, they will certainly do what you need in a much shorter time than you, there are apps and websites where you can get in touch with them and negotiate prices.
That's not why i'm doing this
I know, but you will save a lot of time because you will practically work with much better tools.
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
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Trader724
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
I only referred to better tools so that you can work efficiently. You can try to lift something up manually or use a pulley. There's a big difference. On what foundation do you build your house and all the other details are part of another discussion.
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goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:49 pm
speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
I only referred to better tools so that you can work efficiently. You can try to lift something up manually or use a pulley. There's a big difference. On what foundation do you build your house and all the other details are part of another discussion.
Isn't that why I am using BetAngel?!
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Trader724
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

goat68 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:03 pm
Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:49 pm
speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
I only referred to better tools so that you can work efficiently. You can try to lift something up manually or use a pulley. There's a big difference. On what foundation do you build your house and all the other details are part of another discussion.
Isn't that why I am using BetAngel?!
BA's role is to execute, not to develop. Each tool has its purpose, do not confuse them.
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speedyhamster
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:58 am

Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:49 pm
speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
I only referred to better tools so that you can work efficiently. You can try to lift something up manually or use a pulley. There's a big difference. On what foundation do you build your house and all the other details are part of another discussion.
Nothing will work without a solid foundation, once a solid foundation is there, then your post is a good valid option for some
User avatar
Trader724
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:22 pm

speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:11 pm
Trader724 wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:49 pm
speedyhamster wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm
lets get the best tools to build a house, get the fastest and best tools for bricklaying and plastering etc but lets skip the solid foundation, will the house remain up or collapse?
I only referred to better tools so that you can work efficiently. You can try to lift something up manually or use a pulley. There's a big difference. On what foundation do you build your house and all the other details are part of another discussion.
Nothing will work without a solid foundation, once a solid foundation is there, then your post is a good valid option for some
To build the foundation you also need tools. :D
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