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Football, Soccer - whatever you call it. It is the beautiful game.
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Kafkaesque
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:20 am

Kai wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:38 am
I'd imagine OGS would look for a reaction after the humiliating defeat at OT, but not entirely convinced by his tactics and desire to bring back the 90's United style. He already has a worse points per game ratio than all the previous managers, and I can easily see it getting much worse, may be in well over his head.

Not a fan of speculating too much before a game, I prefer to see how the game unfolds.
It's beyond the point of debate whether OGS is in over his head. He simply is. The question has instead become whether he's close enough to where he needs to be, for him to learn on the job before it's too late.

Mourinho is many things, but he does know his stuff. He said something on Sky a few weeks ago (although about Lampard's issues, not OGS), that is blatantly obvious (imho) but vastly overlooked by casual spectators - who mostly see football as with and without the ball. But instead of two, it's four phases. Set defensive structure, set attackting structure, transitional defensive structure, and transitional attackting structure. If you watch a lot of football and/or have played at a decent level, you'll instantly know that you get punished if there's no structure in even one of them.

United are decent, maybe even good, at the first two.

Transitioning defensively United are a complete mess. Clearly they're often losing the ball where they're all soundly positioned as is, but when they're not, they just seem to stand around waiting to what they need to react to, rather than being proactive. All top team transition into either dropping back into blocks or pressing up. The number of times they lose possession and just stand around is doing my head in. Often times the front four are caught flat, four players perfectly across the pitch, and just keep those positions, until they're bypassed - four of the them with one simple pass, leaving their back 4 and 2 CM's exposed.

Transitioning attacking everything just blows up with Pogba (and OGS misguided trust in him). Every top top team has an 8, or with more attacking teams a 6, that they explicitely trust to pass or carry the ball without ever, or as close there to as possible, losing the ball dangerously in transition. It's a necessity to truly dominate other teams, because you can push more players in front of the ball. United do too. Problem is, Pogba doesn't live up to that trust. He's losing it multiple times every match in extremely precarious spots. Just look at someone with a similar role but vastly less talent, like Sissoko for Spurs. He never ever loses the ball with the team transitioning with lots of teammates in front of him. Teams are targeting Pogba as a soft spot, trying to nick it off him. It speaks so much against OGS that he hasn't put Pogba out of the firing line in a 10, a 8/10 hybrid, or plain dropped him.

United and OGS are tactically the biggest mess, I can recall seeing in top football for many many years.
greenmark
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Kafkaesque wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 pm
Kai wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:38 am
I'd imagine OGS would look for a reaction after the humiliating defeat at OT, but not entirely convinced by his tactics and desire to bring back the 90's United style. He already has a worse points per game ratio than all the previous managers, and I can easily see it getting much worse, may be in well over his head.

Not a fan of speculating too much before a game, I prefer to see how the game unfolds.
It's beyond the point of debate whether OGS is in over his head. He simply is. The question has instead become whether he's close enough to where he needs to be, for him to learn on the job before it's too late.

Mourinho is many things, but he does know his stuff. He said something on Sky a few weeks ago (although about Lampard's issues, not OGS), that is blatantly obvious (imho) but vastly overlooked by casual spectators - who mostly see football as with and without the ball. But instead of two, it's four phases. Set defensive structure, set attackting structure, transitional defensive structure, and transitional attackting structure. If you watch a lot of football and/or have played at a decent level, you'll instantly know that you get punished if there's no structure in even one of them.

United are decent, maybe even good, at the first two.

Transitioning defensively United are a complete mess. Clearly they're often losing the ball where they're all soundly positioned as is, but when they're not, they just seem to stand around waiting to what they need to react to, rather than being proactive. All top team transition into either dropping back into blocks or pressing up. The number of times they lose possession and just stand around is doing my head in. Often times the front four are caught flat, four players perfectly across the pitch, and just keep those positions, until they're bypassed - four of the them with one simple pass, leaving their back 4 and 2 CM's exposed.

Transitioning attacking everything just blows up with Pogba (and OGS misguided trust in him). Every top top team has an 8, or with more attacking teams a 6, that they explicitely trust to pass or carry the ball without ever, or as close there to as possible, losing the ball dangerously in transition. It's a necessity to truly dominate other teams, because you can push more players in front of the ball. United do too. Problem is, Pogba doesn't live up to that trust. He's losing it multiple times every match in extremely precarious spots. Just look at someone with a similar role but vastly less talent, like Sissoko for Spurs. He never ever loses the ball with the team transitioning with lots of teammates in front of him. Teams are targeting Pogba as a soft spot, trying to nick it off him. It speaks so much against OGS that he hasn't put Pogba out of the firing line in a 10, a 8/10 hybrid, or plain dropped him.

United and OGS are tactically the biggest mess, I can recall seeing in top football for many many years.
But how do you manage one of the world's most expensive footballers?
Personally, I think Pogba is brilliant but only when he feels like it.
Thst's cobblers at any level, but football stars have transcended the game.
And with Bury's fate, why should a player trust a club or owner?
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Kafkaesque
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:20 am

greenmark wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:41 pm
Kafkaesque wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 pm
Kai wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:38 am
I'd imagine OGS would look for a reaction after the humiliating defeat at OT, but not entirely convinced by his tactics and desire to bring back the 90's United style. He already has a worse points per game ratio than all the previous managers, and I can easily see it getting much worse, may be in well over his head.

Not a fan of speculating too much before a game, I prefer to see how the game unfolds.
It's beyond the point of debate whether OGS is in over his head. He simply is. The question has instead become whether he's close enough to where he needs to be, for him to learn on the job before it's too late.

Mourinho is many things, but he does know his stuff. He said something on Sky a few weeks ago (although about Lampard's issues, not OGS), that is blatantly obvious (imho) but vastly overlooked by casual spectators - who mostly see football as with and without the ball. But instead of two, it's four phases. Set defensive structure, set attackting structure, transitional defensive structure, and transitional attackting structure. If you watch a lot of football and/or have played at a decent level, you'll instantly know that you get punished if there's no structure in even one of them.

United are decent, maybe even good, at the first two.

Transitioning defensively United are a complete mess. Clearly they're often losing the ball where they're all soundly positioned as is, but when they're not, they just seem to stand around waiting to what they need to react to, rather than being proactive. All top team transition into either dropping back into blocks or pressing up. The number of times they lose possession and just stand around is doing my head in. Often times the front four are caught flat, four players perfectly across the pitch, and just keep those positions, until they're bypassed - four of the them with one simple pass, leaving their back 4 and 2 CM's exposed.

Transitioning attacking everything just blows up with Pogba (and OGS misguided trust in him). Every top top team has an 8, or with more attacking teams a 6, that they explicitely trust to pass or carry the ball without ever, or as close there to as possible, losing the ball dangerously in transition. It's a necessity to truly dominate other teams, because you can push more players in front of the ball. United do too. Problem is, Pogba doesn't live up to that trust. He's losing it multiple times every match in extremely precarious spots. Just look at someone with a similar role but vastly less talent, like Sissoko for Spurs. He never ever loses the ball with the team transitioning with lots of teammates in front of him. Teams are targeting Pogba as a soft spot, trying to nick it off him. It speaks so much against OGS that he hasn't put Pogba out of the firing line in a 10, a 8/10 hybrid, or plain dropped him.

United and OGS are tactically the biggest mess, I can recall seeing in top football for many many years.
But how do you manage one of the world's most expensive footballers?
Personally, I think Pogba is brilliant but only when he feels like it.
Thst's cobblers at any level, but football stars have transcended the game.
And with Bury's fate, why should a player trust a club or owner?
I don't know!

But then I'm not the one who trains him every day. I'm not the one who has 10, 20, 30 people at my disposal ready to tell me all about his personality, physical shape and more. And most nail on the head I'm not the one who's the manager at one the World's three biggest clubs, which by default would then have some of the World's most expensive players. If OGS cannot solve that, then he's well out of his depth, which was sort of the point.

Bury? Did the scandal at Enron mean that no person can ever trust another person again? Seems equally relevant to United as Bury ;)
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Kai
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

Kafkaesque wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 pm
It's beyond the point of debate whether OGS is in over his head. He simply is. The question has instead become whether he's close enough to where he needs to be, for him to learn on the job before it's too late.
No argument here, was just trying to be respectful because of my Liverpool bias, wouldn't want any lurking United fans to get triggered :) I do like to keep an open mind though, I'll give him a chance to change my mind over the course of this season, even though I don't see any positive indicators so far other than helping develop a couple of the younger players like Daniel James. I can't give OGS any credit for the results when he first came in, since I think that was just a positive reaction to Mourinho leaving and the squad felt free again, particularly Pogba with that ridiculous run of form that he had, but you knew he couldn't keep that up and that he would revert to mean eventually.

Have a very low opinion of Pogba in general, in short I think he's an overrated clown that is more interested in showmanship than performances and results, he looks like he's just looking for an excuse to dab. Imho Fergie was right about him from the start and Mourinho bringing him back was a mistake, especially at that price, an expensive mistake that snowballed the whole club in the wrong direction. Same with Sanchez, looked like Mourinho just wanted to get him just to keep him out of Pep's clutches because City would then be unstoppable, so he offered him wages that he couldn't refuse. Most football fans around are already familiar with Mourinho's 3rd season syndrome, there is a clear pattern for everyone to see how his clubs tend to implode completely in the 3rd season, in huge part due to his confrontational man-management and short-term thinking, he likes to burn his bridges just to get quick results which is the opposite approach of Klopp who likes to build things from the ground up. Literally seen Mourinho cry (real tears) on telly the other day saying how nobody wants to offer him a job at the moment, that's hardly a coincidence. He's been on a major PR offensive since leaving United trying to show everyone what a great guy and manager he actually is but not entirely convinced that it's genuine. Interesting times ahead for the league, with Lampard and OGS learning to manage and Gerrard getting ready to take over from Klopp when he leaves.
JTEDL
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:21 pm

Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:44 am
Gerrard getting ready to take over from Klopp when he leaves.
Thought this for a while too since doing well at Rangers, when it comes to the day Klopp leaves Liverpool - it's 1.01 Gerrard for next manager. ;)
greenmark
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Arsenal v Spurs. Call this one! The unpredictable Luiz and Eriksson back in the fold (for now). Alli and Ozil lurking on the bench. Really intriguing.
Oops, Eriksson isn't unpredictable.
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Kai
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We could use the goal whisperer for this one :)
greenmark
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Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:40 pm
We could use the goal whisperer for this one :)
Thats too cryptic for me. Can you explain? :-)
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Kai
Posts: 7095
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm

greenmark wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:46 pm
Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:40 pm
We could use the goal whisperer for this one :)
Thats too cryptic for me. Can you explain? :-)
Psychoff ;)
greenmark
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:53 pm
greenmark wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:46 pm
Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:40 pm
We could use the goal whisperer for this one :)
Thats too cryptic for me. Can you explain? :-)
Psychoff ;)
OK I recognise the reference, but still can't connect it to this game, and I want to watch the game. Some homework for me though. Cheers Kai.
greenmark
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Classic Xhaka. What a waste of space!
greenmark
Posts: 6266
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:15 pm

Lloris beaten at the near post? Come on, you're kidding me! Thats feeble!
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Kai
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Sorry, wasn't trying to be cryptic :D Just a tough game to call from the off, you said it yourself, could use all the help we could get for this one.
greenmark
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Kai wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:39 pm
Sorry, wasn't trying to be cryptic :D Just a tough game to call from the off, you said it yourself, could use all the help we could get for this one.
No worries. Most opinions on here are thought provoking and enlightening usually. Thats good. It turned out to be a peculiar performance from Spurs. Where was the press? Ah well, c'est la vie!
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Derek27
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Is a nine-second in-play delay the norm for international matches?
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