UK General Election 2024 (or 25)

[Archery1969]

I hope Starmer has better security when he becomes PM. It took about a minute for those idiots to be escorted off-stage!

The leader of the opposition is supposed to have 3 armed bodyguards at all times. I know there is a car outside is London home with armed officers 24/7.

[sionascaig]

As someone whose wife’s tax affairs were for so long within the letter of the law, but certainly not the spirit of it

Why not within the spirit of the law ... I refer you to Lord Clyde's judgement re Ayrshire Pullman Motor Services and Ritchie v. IRC (1929) where he declared in his judgement "No man in this country is under the smallest obligation, moral or other, so to arrange his legal relations to his business or to his property as to enable the Inland Revenue to put the largest possible shovel into his stores.”

Clearly Rishi's wife's tax affairs were fully within the spirit of that judgement.

Well for a start she is a woman and this judgement only applies to men. How things have moved on. (yes, that comment is tongue in cheek)

I would agree in principle with that judgement, however the world is a different place now: you have multi-nationals making vast profits in the UK but paying almost no tax due to international tax laws, You have individuals changing nationality just to avoid tax. In short, we have tax laws that no longer can keep up with schemes and stratagem's of the tax avoiders.

A balance needs to be struck. So yes Lord Clyde is right you shouldn't be legally bound to arrange affairs to maximise tax take, but similarly you shouldn't be able to arrange tax affairs to avoid paying a fair share.

I think Sunak's and his wife's actions (to renounce American citizenship) were in part a recognition of the "spirit" being broken.

tbh a few nom-doms doesn't really get me worked up but seeing the destruction of highstreets / small businesses because amazon pays heehaw tax does... it should be a level(ish) playing field.

[firlandsfarm]

Lots to discuss!

I would agree in principle with that judgement, however the world is a different place now: you have multi-nationals making vast profits in the UK but paying almost no tax due to international tax laws, You have individuals changing nationality just to avoid tax. In short, we have tax laws that no longer can keep up with

I understand your emotions but why should someone not domiciled in the UK pay UK tax on income/gains arising outside the UK? (Remember they pay UK tax on income/gains arising in or remitted to the UK.)

A balance needs to be struck. So yes Lord Clyde is right you shouldn't be legally bound to arrange affairs to maximise tax take, but similarly you shouldn't be able to arrange tax affairs to avoid paying a fair share.

But how do you define "a fair share"? And why is it not a fair share to pay UK tax on your UK income/gains and overseas income/gains remitted to the UK? As a Non-Dom you pay UK tax on your UK life the same as you and I do (maybe there is an argument to say they pay a fairer share than a non taxpaying bet trader! )

I think Sunak's and his wife's actions (to renounce American citizenship) were in part a recognition of the "spirit" being broken.

Not at all. Her actions were brought about by a media that either didn't understand the Non-Dom status or didn't want to for political reasons and the political opposition who saw it as an opportunity to mislead the public and stoke a fire to their advantage. Both made it sound as if she didn't pay any UK tax which is not the case. Her actions were probably because her husband said 'look love, I'm the PM here and you need to change your tax position'.

tbh a few nom-doms doesn't really get me worked up but seeing the destruction of highstreets / small businesses because amazon pays heehaw tax does... it should be a level(ish) playing field.

The Amazon et al thing equally annoys me but like the 'boat people' what's the answer? The problem is they are able to move worldwide costs from country to country by accounting so that profits can arise in low tax countries. Ireland has benefitted enormously by this because of their low rate of Corporation Tax. Profits are moved to the Ireland company by accounting. Maybe one way would be to assess UK profits pro-rata as UK sales to worldwide sales but realistically that would need the agreement of other major countries or worldwide taxation could be thrown out of balance.

[Archery1969]

Lots to discuss!

I would agree in principle with that judgement, however the world is a different place now: you have multi-nationals making vast profits in the UK but paying almost no tax due to international tax laws, You have individuals changing nationality just to avoid tax. In short, we have tax laws that no longer can keep up with

I understand your emotions but why should someone not domiciled in the UK pay UK tax on income/gains arising outside the UK? (Remember they pay UK tax on income/gains arising in or remitted to the UK.)

A balance needs to be struck. So yes Lord Clyde is right you shouldn't be legally bound to arrange affairs to maximise tax take, but similarly you shouldn't be able to arrange tax affairs to avoid paying a fair share.

But how do you define "a fair share"? And why is it not a fair share to pay UK tax on your UK income/gains and overseas income/gains remitted to the UK? As a Non-Dom you pay UK tax on your UK life the same as you and I do (maybe there is an argument to say they pay a fairer share than a non taxpaying bet trader! )

I think Sunak's and his wife's actions (to renounce American citizenship) were in part a recognition of the "spirit" being broken.

Not at all. Her actions were brought about by a media that either didn't understand the Non-Dom status or didn't want to for political reasons and the political opposition who saw it as an opportunity to mislead the public and stoke a fire to their advantage. Both made it sound as if she didn't pay any UK tax which is not the case. Her actions were probably because her husband said 'look love, I'm the PM here and you need to change your tax position'.

tbh a few nom-doms doesn't really get me worked up but seeing the destruction of highstreets / small businesses because amazon pays heehaw tax does... it should be a level(ish) playing field.

The Amazon et al thing equally annoys me but like the 'boat people' what's the answer? The problem is they are able to move worldwide costs from country to country by accounting so that profits can arise in low tax countries. Ireland has benefitted enormously by this because of their low rate of Corporation Tax. Profits are moved to the Ireland company by accounting. Maybe one way would be to assess UK profits pro-rata as UK sales to worldwide sales but realistically that would need the agreement of other major countries or worldwide taxation could be thrown out of balance.

The other problem is if the UK/EU goes after USA companies to pay more tax, then the US puts import tarrifs on UK/EU companies exporting to the USA. So, on the one hand you may be able to raise more taxes but then exporters get stuffed, which has a knock on affect. Its a balancing act. Its all very well Labour, the media and others saying tax Banks, Oil companies, Amazon, Twitter, Meta, Facebook etc much more but you will end up doing more harm than good.

[Derek27]

Well for a start she is a woman and this judgement only applies to men.

Well spotted!

[sionascaig]

Lots to discuss!

There is indeed and I accept most of your points and have sympathy with others but currently in a weakened state to robustly discuss... (plus you will probably wup ma ass..)

Can we park until we meet up in either the good place, the bad place, come back as some other creature or indeed not at all?

By "fairly", I suppose a reasonable starting point would be any avoidance strategies would be open to all & not just the preserve of very rich. Not much use however if you can't afford to buy a pint of milk..

PS: I was really tempted to mention Philip Green (and wife) but will resist the temptation.

[firlandsfarm]

By "fairly", I suppose a reasonable starting point would be any avoidance strategies would be open to all & not just the preserve of very rich. Not much use however if you can't afford to buy a pint of milk..

PS: I was really tempted to mention Philip Green (and wife) but will resist the temptation.

All avoidance strategies are available to all but to take advantage of any they have to fit your individual circumstances in the same way that bet trading is open for anybody to 'have a go' but not all can/do.

I have to say I see irony in those that enjoy a tax free income by taking advantage of an avoidance clause that was never intended for the purpose to which they are applying it moan about others avoiding tax by taking advantage of an avoidance clause that was designed wholly for the purpose they are using it!

[firlandsfarm]

The other problem is if the UK/EU goes after USA companies to pay more tax, then the US puts import tarrifs on UK/EU companies exporting to the USA. So, on the one hand you may be able to raise more taxes but then exporters get stuffed, which has a knock on affect. Its a balancing act. Its all very well Labour, the media and others saying tax Banks, Oil companies, Amazon, Twitter, Meta, Facebook etc much more but you will end up doing more harm than good.

Totally agree, Labour never look for the downsides in their proposals. I feel the taxation of internationals both personal and corporate is an unsolvable problem if you see it as a problem ... I don't. Everything Labour says relies on everything remaining unchanged after. That's not going to happen. When France removed Non-Dom status most left and came to the UK. France lost tax revenues the UK gained tax revenue. Labour seem to think those affected by their changes will take a 'that's a shame, I guess I will have to pay more tax'!

I think the same will happen after the hike in Corporation Tax. Those that can will move profits offshore, many to Ireland. Labour can't stomach that business tax revenue increased when the rate was reduced to 19%.

[Archery1969]

The other problem is if the UK/EU goes after USA companies to pay more tax, then the US puts import tarrifs on UK/EU companies exporting to the USA. So, on the one hand you may be able to raise more taxes but then exporters get stuffed, which has a knock on affect. Its a balancing act. Its all very well Labour, the media and others saying tax Banks, Oil companies, Amazon, Twitter, Meta, Facebook etc much more but you will end up doing more harm than good.

Totally agree, Labour never look for the downsides in their proposals. I feel the taxation of internationals both personal and corporate is an unsolvable problem if you see it as a problem ... I don't. Everything Labour says relies on everything remaining unchanged after. That's not going to happen. When France removed Non-Dom status most left and came to the UK. France lost tax revenues the UK gained tax revenue. Labour seem to think those affected by their changes will take a 'that's a shame, I guess I will have to pay more tax'!

I think the same will happen after the hike in Corporation Tax. Those that can will move profits offshore, many to Ireland. Labour can't stomach that business tax revenue increased when the rate was reduced to 19%.

Good points. + 1

[Derek27]

Home Office paint over Micky Mouse mural for children at asylum centre because it's too welcoming!

Just when you think the Tories can't sink any lower...

[Derek27]

Over a thousand migrants crossed the Channel in the last two days. That's one of Sunak's own goals.

[Archangel]

The only policy left for the Tories to cling to is stopping migrants crossing the channel. And they are making a complete balls of that also. The sooner this completely incompetent shower is gone from power the better...

[greenmark]

The only policy left for the Tories to cling to is stopping migrants crossing the channel. And they are making a complete balls of that also. The sooner this completely incompetent shower is gone from power the better...

13 years is a long time to not grow the economy but to screw it up. Excuses, covid, Ukraine only go so far. UK PLC has flatlined since 2016. It's shit show!

[Archery1969]

The only policy left for the Tories to cling to is stopping migrants crossing the channel. And they are making a complete balls of that also. The sooner this completely incompetent shower is gone from power the better...

13 years is a long time to not grow the economy but to screw it up. Excuses, covid, Ukraine only go so far. UK PLC has flatlined since 2016. It's shit show!

It’s not all bad news if you read PWC’s analysis. Although looking at there tables we should get back to pre 2016 levels by 2030.

Problem is people will feel poorer for the next 7 years, give or take.

https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press- ... -2050.html

[firlandsfarm]

The only policy left for the Tories to cling to is stopping migrants crossing the channel. And they are making a complete balls of that also. The sooner this completely incompetent shower is gone from power the better...

It's amusing how some people condemn the Government for not solving an unsolvable problem without putting their solution clearly on the table in detail! You cannot stop the boats because of the unique position we are in where the sea border between us and France has no International water between us. We cannot push the boats back into French water and the rules of the sea say we must rescue them, especially when they have entered our water. The only shower here is the shower of misleading implications that there is a simple solution.

I look forward to reading the guaranteed solutions below.