Today's Football

[Kafkaesque]

I won't be able to convey how disappointing that is. But, hey, opinion is opinion and you are respected poster in my opinion.
I don't really understand the animosity against LFC or MUFC or AFC and so on. Is it envy? Or a reaction to the crowing of some fans of those clubs that are successful.
But in any case my animosity is reserved for groups of player at any club that fail their fans. Eg Sunderland, Stoke, Blackburn Rovers. That is truly unforgiveable.

My feelings are somewhat different due to my experiences at football grounds. I've been to somewhere in triple digits range of Spurs matches, and racist abuse being hurled is much more the standard than you'd think, and in the better part of them it's been an issue Especially the case as a Spurs fan, I'd suspect. Hitler references are the standard MO for a fair few London clubs, and gas chamber hissing is par for the course for most sets of fans, I've had the "pleasure" of experiencing, including Liverpool's. So you'll just have to excuse me, if I don't find a bit of booing when subbing on as being the most disappointing thing in this world.

Animosity and even bordering hatred will always be a thing in something as tribal as football. At least as long there's animosity and division among subsections within society, nations, and between nations. Football fans are imo an extention of society, and probably an extrapolation of it, bringing the worst parts to the surface. With society moving towards more division, I don't see why or how it should not be an understandable reality, that football grounds aren't exactly kumbaya.

Envy is clearly a part of it. But that, the success, only serves to highlight things that you can knock, which might well have gone unnoticed with teams of a lesser profile. There was some of the same dynamics with United and Fergie in 90's and 00's, but I don't recall the ill-feeling being anywhere as severe.

Yes, the term that people have coined for Liverpool and its fanbase is "The Unbearables"

Well, I can tell you that the two most common terms for the Liverpool fanbase are entirely different, and less pleasant. But we'll leave that well enough and alone

Some people still haven't gotten over the Istanbul comeback and they think that they will never hear the end of it if Liverpool win the league now. Well, they are absolutely right, in the age of internet and social media and memes they will never ever hear the end it, any and every success will be amplified a thousandfold because this is a younger fanbase that was (more or less) starved of footballing success over a long period and they will know how to celebrate and appreciate success

Like I said in my previous, I did once upon a time like Liverpool. Or on reflection, respect is probably a more correct. I could allow myself to be happy for Liverpool, as I felt they deserved it. And Gerrard deserved it. Which is even more the case, looking back and knowing that he never quite get over the line in terms of a PL title, that he probably deserved for his loyalty. So definitely not where it's coming from for me personally.

Like anything in life, it all boils down to past success and envy, fans don't really care about a well run club that plays attacking attractive football, and that tells you that they don't want them to win for all the wrong reasons that don't have anything to do with football. Instead, they want a sportswashing oil-rich club to win everything As evolved as we are technologically we still very much suffer from tribalism.

This is clearly a matter of opinion, because what constitutes good or attractive football varies by person, but I don't think, Liverpool play especially attractive football. Klopp did get this one 100% spot on. He and Liverpool play heavy metal football. Which I don't really fancy, be it football or music.

Was going to mention City originally, but felt I'd rambled on enough By any sort of neutral standard, the dirty oil money City should be the focus of people's ire. Or failing that, the club in West London with nasty fans who were the first (unless you count Jack Walker) to move the financial bar to unhealthy levels. You say, it's because people have wrong reasons. I say there's maybe, just maybe, a time and a place for self-reflection, to consider whether all the other people are wrong, or whether you (as a fanbase, not you personally) are doing something to be considered worse than those two lot.

Well if you've got evidence that he is not what he appears to be on the surface and that he is in fact Hitler incarnate then I would love to see it!

You realise what you've done, right? Alright, you asked. Apologies in advance, as this will need to go slightly, partly off topic to explain; deal with it

One, I said, he makes my stomach turn; not that he's comparable to one the worst human beings ever. Two, I said, I did use to like the guy. The issue is that was prior to actually listening in depth to him (I listen to every pre and post match presser and interview from the PL, I can get my hands on). He still strikes me as someone who genuiely cares for the people around him and brings positive energy to them. So in some respects, he might be a lovely man. I just wonder how much is a front. Three, it's an opinion so proof is a stretch.

There's an example, and a general tendency.

A few months back after the Leicester match, he was asked about Salah being injured. Aside from being an outright c*nt to the interviewer just doing his job and asking simple, sensible questions, this one stuck out to me. "For three years we're the fairest team. We don't do these things. That's to slow Mo down. That's really, really not okay." In the very same match, Fabinho chopped Maddison down from behind with no chance of getting the ball, to stop a counter. A few match days later against Spurs, Milner hacked down Lucas, again no chance to win the ball, but to slow the player. Liverpool do it all the time, when needed. You want to repeat, what it is you never do, there Jurgen? Granted, Choudhury's was more rash than the two examples. That doesn't stop it being a straight up lie, because he's frustrated that someone dare be cynical against the mighty Liverpool and Salah.

This is part of the larger tendency. And this is where I'll go off the rails What imho is sneaking more and more into society and public discourse is that it's always someone's fault. I try my utmost to bite my tongue and have done so many times, because I don't really think this place is all that suitable for broader discussions. All the same, I've let things get the better of me from time and time, and you may know, I'm most definitely to the left of the middle. Now, I don't mind people having differing views. At all...so long as they're based on fact, not prejudice. If someone votes to the right of the middle, because they feel the kind of macro economics, they get with that vote will create a better society, I 100% respect that. In fact, that was my own point of view as young man. That's not what the vast majority is saying in modern democracy. You vote on the side of the aisle looking for someone who f*cking up. Someone who's taking a slice your pie. Those bloody politicians, those bureaucrats in Bruxelles, those losers who's too lazy to go get a job, those foreigners changing our country, those, those, those. "I've got my house sorted, why can't everyone? I want autonomy, financialand otherwise". The majority of people, by a landslide, have got their own sh*t in order, so if they stopped looking for people to shout at, and instead used their energy (and preferably, but not necessarily, their vote) to make a positive difference in their local community and society at large, we'd make giant strides. I'm sick and tired of the blame game.

The relevance of that rant...I'd really, really prefer that the sport I love more than any other isn't another place for that. Especially given I'm pouring a ton of energy into it and gaining an edge, which means, as mentioned, listening to these managers, over and over. It's not that I'm one of those who expects footballers and managers to be held to a higher standard, but it simply bugs me no end to have it, the blame game, in all quarters and now also in the PL. But much more significantly, it to me speaks to a person's essence and integrity. I'm no Pep fanboy by and large, but listen to Pep or Poch when something goes against their teams. Yeah, they have the odd blow-up, as Pep showed at the weekend. By and large though, their response is along the lines of: This is football. These things happen. We now need to.... Or from here we will.... On the contrary, when faced with issues, Klopp's go-to is by and large he (usually the ref, sometimes an opponent), they, or you. It's always someone else, instead of inward reflection.

On a larger scales it just rubs me the wrong way, through no fault of Klopp's. On a smaller scale, he's showing off one of lowest and worst kind of personality trait.

[greenmark]

A friend of mine was a steward at Aston Villa. He told me LFC and Coventry were the worst to deal with.
So I recognise your first hand experience of bad behaviour.
If you don't wear your uniform to identify yourself, these halfwits are helpless.
Then again perhaps we should all wear our loyalties and be loud and proud about it.
I'd support that 100%.
And again, knowing you're a Spur, it gives me zero pleasure to see them where they are.
Quite the opposite, so much talent, I hope they sort it and rise to where they should be.

[Kai]

Haha, had a feeling you were going to write an essay about Liverpool!

Like I said in my previous, I did once upon a time like Liverpool.

Let me guess, you liked them when they weren't such a threat, and now you can't stand them That is sort of my point, I remember seeing actual data saying that United was the most hated club for a very long time, that's no doubt directly correlated to the amount of success they've had, and now the hate is starting to shift towards Liverpool for the same reason. Maybe you too got swept along with that wave of newfound hatred, perhaps unwillingly, especially after the CL final.

People know that if/when Liverpool win the league then the sleeping giant will truly awaken and imho that is what worries a large portion of rival fanbases, the last thing that they want is another period of Liverpool dominance, especially when Pep inevitably leaves.

Obviously I'm not going to discuss how rival fans sometimes treat each other and how they like to call one another, football is not more important than life and death, the disgusting parts should be stamped out of the game for good. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon, I feel that going to a match is nothing more than an outlet for a lot of people and their mind just goes on full tribal mode for those 90 minutes and that can very easily bring out the worst in people, especially when they don't fancy the current result.

Klopp still strikes me as someone who genuiely cares for the people around him and brings positive energy to them. So in some respects, he might be a lovely man. I just wonder how much is a front.

He doesn't appear to have a front, that is what makes him unique. He is an open book so not exactly sure why you're having trouble reading him. If tactical fouling is the worst example you could think of then I am extremely disappointed Sounds like nitpicking at best tbh. Can't really think of a manager that turns my stomach tbh, apart from Fergie for purely obvious and envious reasons.

Salah is still injured from that tackle and it doesn't look great for the next games, it might get worse before it gets better. I too would be pissed off about that, Klopp has the smallest squad and a bad injury to a key player can derail the whole season and undermine all of their hard work. Make the tactical foul if you want, nobody does that better than Pep's teams, but don't murder the player in the process. That being said, I too was surprised by Milner's tackle on Lucas, if memory serves it was a similar situation and I don't like seeing it.

[Kafkaesque]

There's a Danish saying, for which I cannot think of an English equivelant right now, that goes you're reading my post as the devil reads the bible.

Haha, had a feeling you were going to write an essay about Liverpool!

I aim to please...or whatever that post did

Let me guess, you liked them when they weren't such a threat, and now you can't stand them

You'd be guessing incorrectly

I felt, I made it pretty clear that for me personally it's about when I started taking more notice of what Klopp, and other managers, was saying, and how they are handling themselves.

Amidst all the negative, which is all centered on personality and approach, I will say this. I, still, respect Klopp as a manager. He clearly for all to see has a knack for getting the absolute most out of his players, and for signing players who fits perfectly into what he wants to do. But then I always felt that way.

In this context this means that Liverpool in my mind was a threath, or at the very least likely to be so within not too long, from the second they hired Klopp. And that pre-dates how I know feel about what is happening. If you want to read something else into it, that's your prerogative.

He doesn't appear to have a front, that is what makes him unique. He is an open book so not exactly sure why you're having trouble reading him.

I have zero trouble reading him. He's by all accounts and by the looks of things, a lovely man with a bubbly personality. So long as it's a casual conversation and, if in the context of a match, things are going well for Liverpool. If not, he turns nasty and arrogant. Only question mark is how much he's like that, even in good times, when the cameras are not there. That's impossible to know. Again, if you want to interpret that as unable to read him, your prerogative.

If tactical fouling is the worst example you could think of then I am extremely disappointed Sounds like nitpicking at best tbh.

Again, not what I said. I don't have a problem with Liverpool doing tactical fouls. It's part of the game, until they change the rules to red for a foul with no intent to play the ball (which I'm incidently in favor of). It's the double standard of it. The refs are sooooo against us attitude. The arrogance towards a simple question. Which I'm seeing again, again and again, unless the question is "So Jurgen, another great win, huh?"

Salah is still injured from that tackle and it doesn't look great for the next games, it might get worse before it gets better. I too would be pissed off about that, Klopp has the smallest squad and a bad injury to a key player can derail the whole season and undermine all of their hard work. Make the tactical foul if you want, nobody does that better than Pep's teams, but don't murder the player in the process. That being said, I too was surprised by Milner's tackle on Lucas, if memory serves it was a similar situation and I don't like seeing it.

Weeeeeeeeeh, I get to agree on something. Sort of The tackle was over the top. And Choudhury has previous'es with nasty stuff. Be angry, fine. Have a word with the fourth official during the match, fine. Have a word with the ref after the match, fine. But all this screaming in the fourth official's face (where he gets away with about four times more than most would and ten times what, say Mourinho, would), being arrogant towards a reporter afterwards and making it out, that it's always us, and we never do nothing wrong, I swear sir. That he can feck off with.

I'll say not just Pep's team, but his, Klopp's and (prior to this season) Poch's are all masters of the tactical fouls. It's just easier to get away when you have the ball a ton and start the press high. There'll be fewer of them and they're higher up the pitch.

[Kai]

Weeeeeeeeeh, I get to agree on something. Sort of

Eh, my remarks were a bit tongue-in-cheek, maybe a lot ngl, you didn't exactly give me much to work with

Not much sense in 2 foreigners having a dead serious discussion about the state of English football if you ask me, no matter how immersed in it they may be It sounds worse than it is, when in truth most (it not all) of Europe would be more than happy to have more of a family ground atmosphere like England has. Meanwhile in Italy, someone just mailed a bullet to Antonio Conte

I do feel generally that England has it spot on most of the time, the passion of the fans is so strong that it sometimes spills over but this is not really a footballing issue, it's just human nature. I think the balance is more or less in the right place, if the atmosphere gets more casual then you'll get spectator crowds like in Spain that have the habit of booing their own players if they are not sufficiently entertained.

[wearthefoxhat]

Can't see why Walsall are favourites at home v Cambridge today....Probably soon find out...

Odds.GIF

Home.GIF

Away.GIF

[wearthefoxhat]

Yep...soon found out!

10Mins.GIF

[Kafkaesque]

Weeeeeeeeeh, I get to agree on something. Sort of

Eh, my remarks were a bit tongue-in-cheek, maybe a lot ngl, you didn't exactly give me much to work with

Just to clear one last thing up, if you're saying, you were tongue-in-cheek on Milner/Lucas, then yeah I kinda got that, or at least suspected it What I was agreeing with was your assesment of Salah/Choudhury, and that Klopp had the right to be angry. That said....

Not much sense in 2 foreigners having a dead serious discussion about the state of English football if you ask me, no matter how immersed in it they may be It sounds worse than it is, when in truth most (it not all) of Europe would be more than happy to have more of a family ground atmosphere like England has. Meanwhile in Italy, someone just mailed a bullet to Antonio Conte

Agreed. It's run its course. I didn't intend to ruffle too many feathers....though I probably added a bit to my views just be cheeky Rather I wanted to shake the tree and see what feel out (mostly from the Liverpool fans), because the Klopp view has been rumbling in my head for a while. AND because I respect your, and others on here's, opinions, so I wanted to see how you felt.

In the end I should probably have known. I'm self-aware enough to know that much as I'd like to think I don't, I can't rule out the possibility that I have a bias given my alligiance, LFC's success, and the CL final. And you'd naturally enough assume that bias on my part. Just as I assume you have a pro-Klopp bias. Which is fair, because if he was the Spurs manager, I'd be hard pressed to deny that I'd be hanging on his every word and defending him to the hilt

I do feel generally that England has it spot on most of the time, the passion of the fans is so strong that it sometimes spills over but this is not really a footballing issue, it's just human nature. I think the balance is more or less in the right place, if the atmosphere gets more casual then you'll get spectator crowds like in Spain that have the habit of booing their own players if they are not sufficiently entertained.

Fully agree. Which is also why I keep going time and again, despite the nasty bits.

[Kafkaesque]

I really don't get the pricing on Ireland - Denmark. Perhaps someone across the North Sea will a different take?

These two have seen a lot of each other, by international football standards, with WCQ playoffs, UNL, and now EuroQ. I can't help feel that something as simple as four draws out of the five recent matches is skewing the pricing. Along with Denmark needing a point, and Ireland perceived as being the kind of team for a do-or-die at home. All of which matters, but not this much.

I've watched all five of those, and it was as close to a one way shooting gallery as it could be between two in theory competetive nations for every one of those five. As for Denmark needing just a point. It will surely influence Denmark's approach somewhat, but they wouldn't want to have it 0-0 until late and be susceptible to a suckerpunch, set-piece or otherwise. Also, though a lot of things are up in the air, best as I can tell, the difference between a win and a draw is likely to be pot 2 or pot 3 at Euros itself.

Ireland are a strong unit for sure, but they do have a fair few soft spots. More importantly, in a match they have to win, there's not a gamechanger of international standard in sight. 3 goals in 2 against Gibraltar is in itself worrisome, and 3 in the 5 non-Gibraltar quals in this group, along with 1 in 4 UNL matches speaks volumes.

On the other side, I'd say Denmark has the strongest team in Europe, outside of the 5-8, depending on where you want to draw the line, elite European teams. Whisper it, but Denmark are slowly becoming my dark horse for the Euros. Sub-elite teams are always a weird mix of a few stars, players struggling for playing time, and some at sub-par teams or in sub-par leagues. It's been this way with Denmark for as long as I can remember as well (or since Bosman in fact), but this team has a different feel. Of course depends how the manager shuffles the deck, but what I would consider the strongest 11 are all regular starters in the big five leagues, and out those 7 are starters at CL clubs. Not that this constitutes quality or a strong unit in itself; just a point of reference to those who might not recognise the names.

Finally Denmark are undefeated in 33 matches going back to 2016 in 90 minutes (there's a defeat on pens at the WC in there, plus a 34th match which was a friendly defeat during a pro footballers union strike, which saw the team being a hastily assembled group of lower league players plus an emergency coach).

All of which makes me say....3.25 on an Ireland win? Really? AH line somewhere between 0 and -0.25 on Denmark? Really?

[darchas]

Whisper it, but Denmark are slowly becoming my dark horse for the Euros.

Agree with this. Some really good players in that team. Will be watching them closely.

[MemphisFlash]

trade complete after 13 mins

Capture2.JPG

[JTEDL]

Poch sacked :

[Euler]

Pochettino sacked!

[darchas]

Poch sacked :

Big surprise for me there. Not sure who they have lined up better.

[Euler]

Wenger?